deerhunter64
Well-Known Member
Thank you guys for all that advice. I will look up that book.
How much practice did you require
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JohnMill
Well-Known Member
25000 rounds and counting. I am never satisfied
jasent
Well-Known Member
1500-2000 a year as well. The learning never stops
rustyshackleford
Well-Known Member
For me it's more of a frequency thing than a volume thing. I shoot USPSA and if I have been dry firing and shooting some the week prior it makes quite a difference. With long range shooting the only skill you really need that isn't present at 1-300 is wind reading. You can use bigger calibers to buck the wind but you can't eliminate it.
Practice practice practice. Knowledge also isn't just learned on the range either... and the best equipment you can afford goes a long way. My initial training was with shooting very accurate bolt .308's at 1000 yd line, before I went to the flatter shooting cartridges. When your able to consistently hit target with 175SMK, in different conditions, using a MIL_DOT Master and wind flags, you'll get it.
azsugarbear
Well-Known Member
I have found that with great quality equipment (scope, rifle, rangefinder, ammo) and good shooting technique, most anybody can get out to 500 - 600 yds in non-stressful shooting situations. I have taken my Scouts out and had them ringing steel at 600 yds. with no trigger time with a large caliber rifle prior to the experience. just a half hour tutorial and away they went on their learning curve.
After 600 yds, the 'boogeyman' known as 'wind' begins to become the major player in thwarting accuracy. Reading the wind is just as much art as it is science. You simply cannot shortchange your wind reading abilities with better equipment like you can getting distance with a quality rangefinder.
In the end, there is no substitute for practice. You may ring steel consistently at 500 yds at the range, but then try to do the same outdoors in real hunting situations where the ground is uneven, with some uphill or downhill angle and timed for 30 seconds to get set-up, find a firing solution, dial it in, settle behind the rifle and then take the shot. You will find your accuracy potential will go south real quick. But with this type of practice, you will again climb the accuracy curve pretty quickly. Like others have said, the practice never really ends.
After 600 yds, the 'boogeyman' known as 'wind' begins to become the major player in thwarting accuracy. Reading the wind is just as much art as it is science. You simply cannot shortchange your wind reading abilities with better equipment like you can getting distance with a quality rangefinder.
In the end, there is no substitute for practice. You may ring steel consistently at 500 yds at the range, but then try to do the same outdoors in real hunting situations where the ground is uneven, with some uphill or downhill angle and timed for 30 seconds to get set-up, find a firing solution, dial it in, settle behind the rifle and then take the shot. You will find your accuracy potential will go south real quick. But with this type of practice, you will again climb the accuracy curve pretty quickly. Like others have said, the practice never really ends.
RegionRat
Well-Known Member
You asked a legitimate question, that is being more honest than most.
If you take a look at the typical learning curve for NRA and CMP Highpower Mid Range competitions (that involve >600 yards), it gives you a decent perspective of a larger group of shooters with the difference being the scores are being recorded and stats being kept... not just internet chatter...
An above average guy walks in, he will typically have to choose if he will play F-Class (prone from rests) or match gun (say prone with sling). We use different target standards, e.g., the F-Class X-ring is half the size of the match gun. But these are typically 1/4 to 1/2 MOA capable guns when tested at two or three hundred yards in order to stay competitive.
Our above average motivated beginner will start out and find out they generally land at Expert Level, being spanked by the Masters, who are then spanked by the High Masters. On any given day, you can see folks shoot above or below their classification level to some degree, but the system is such that you must shoot the higher classification scores at least three times to be moved up to the next class.
To exactly answer your question would require an analysis of all the scores turned in over a few years, which I would find interesting but nobody has done it. If I were to base my guess on my own club's activities since you asked a good question...
I would estimate it takes a motivated guy most of a season to go from Expert to Master, and then only a small percentage will make High Master within a year. If you guess about once a month and each match is about 60 record shots plus unlimited sighters, that is about 900 shots in matches plus whatever load development and practice shooting they are doing. Figure 2/3 of all that shoot at least 10 years may not ever make HM.
For reference, a High Master is over 97%, Master is 94-97%, Expert is 89-94%, Sharpshooter is 84-89%, Marksmen is below 84%. Each X or 10 rings is 100%, a 9 ring is one point off, and so on. Like we said earlier, the F-Class X is 3" and the 10 ring is 6". That means an F-Class High Master is shooting into 1 MOA 97% of the time, and the Master is 94%, etc.
So, to hit at 94% of the time or better into 1MOA at 600 yards, expect it will take more than a year and more than 1000 measured rounds downrange, just by my guessing how folks progress through our club and highpower matches, and that is if you start out at about Expert.
Many folks give up without making Master after trying for two or three years. A few will make HM after being persistent. Each individual will make up his own mind how hard he will push to climb the ranks. So for fixed distance shooting standards, we can guestimate the answer to your question by assuming you would normally be happy to use a Master rank to say someone is proficient at distances from 600+. That takes a motivated decent riflemen a year or more of shooting on average, which is just my own estimate without doing the actual stats on the scores.
You may find visiting with a club that hosts HP and F-Class competition is a organized way to make yourself better faster. It will help with keeping score and learning from others. YMMV
theosmithjr
Well-Known Member
theosmithjr
Well-Known Member
Proficient Firearm Accuracy is an ACQUIRED SKILL! It also is a PERISHABLE skill! Therefore to become Proficent and Consistantly Accurate, you should shoot as much as possible. I'm all for and about GUN CONTROL! Gun Control to me is being able to CONSISTENTLY place my round at EXACTLY WHAT I AM AIMING AT! NO MATTER WHAT ENVIRONMENTAL VARIABLE I ENCOUNTER! From Point Blank to 1 Mile and Beyond; OUT THERE where INFINITY LIVES! Man takes the Time to select the Perfect Cartridge for his intended target, makes a HUGE Financial investment in the best Rifle and Optics his budget can afford. Some of us go the extra mile and Hand-Load all our ammo! Some of us endure many, many hours working every variable out of our Rifles & Hand-Loads just at the Bench! Then we spend EVERY SPARE MOMENT we can at the Range so that WE KNOW EXACTLY WHERE EACH & EVERY ROUND will Impact at EVERY DISTANCE; to INFINITY in my case! There is NO SET TIME to ACQUIRE & MAINTAIN A SKILL that your very SURVIVAL MAY DEPEND ON! Be it putting Meat on the table, or defending your LIFE, or the LIVES of those YOU LOVE! I hope that ANSWERS your Question my man!
Shooting for Proficency at any Range, especially EXTREME RANGES DEMANDS PRACTICE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE! For CONSISTANT ACCURACY at EXTREME RANGES, it has to become A LIFELONG OBSESSION! Take it from one who KNOWS, and is still after 50+ years of LONG RANGE SHOOTING trying to OBTAIN & MASTER IT, CONSISTANTLY!
Theosmithjr
Shooting for Proficency at any Range, especially EXTREME RANGES DEMANDS PRACTICE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE! For CONSISTANT ACCURACY at EXTREME RANGES, it has to become A LIFELONG OBSESSION! Take it from one who KNOWS, and is still after 50+ years of LONG RANGE SHOOTING trying to OBTAIN & MASTER IT, CONSISTANTLY!
Theosmithjr
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"Totally proficient". That means very different things to different shooters. IF your equipment and loads are up to task, then your technique must become very consistent, AND you must learn to read the wind and other environmental factors.
One different approach in burning a lot of ammo to learn these ever changing factors at range is to shoot an accurate 22LR at reduced but ballistic comparable ranges and scaled targets. This allows one to learn wind drift, shooting technique and critical follow thru. Also, it saves on barrel replacement and ammo cost and allows for the usage of shorter ranges.
Many decades ago, we used, and still do, this training for Palma matches and 1,000 yd practice. Drove our scores way up!
This drill can be utilized with 223/5.56 loads using VLD bullets at 600 and allows for far more wind SWAG practice with much less barrel erosion and reduced component price.
Then when you are consistent with either of these, switch to your LR rifle and watch the difference. Enjoy your new adventure.
theosmithjr
Well-Known Member
theosmithjr
Well-Known Member
I totally agree! A very close friend of mine from MN whom I introduced to Extreme Long Range shooting & Hand-Loading has a son whom is a National Small Bore Champion. He CONSISTENTLY HITS the 10X ring at 1000 yards using an Anshutz .223 STANDING, with NO REST, other than his Shooting Jacket! And this is with METAL APERTURE SIGHTS! 80gr Hand- Loads fellas! His name is Eric Hazelton, and I believe he's 21 or 22 years old! I sold his father his 1st rifle, an Oregon Chipmunk .22, Bolt action, Wood stock, and APERTURE Sights. I purchased this rifle for my son, whom was diagnosed with Highly Functioning Autisum & Asperger's Syndrome. He never showed an interest in Shooting, and the rifle reports really offended him, so I sold Chris, Eric's father the once fired rifle for $100.00 back in 2000. LQQK what CONSISTENT PRACTICE can accomplish! Eric places Consistantly in the top 3 in SMALL BORE year in and year out! Now LQQK what that young man is doing! He shoots at Camp Perry, Ohio & other National Match Ranges. Look it up, he's in the Record Books and ALL over the WWW. I introduced his Father to GUN CONTROL at Extreme Distances and sold him his 1st rifle. The love & patience of his father introduced him to the World of Guns and ALL TYPES of Shooting and Hunting! Now this young man will further preserve our Heritage by continuing on his path and someday when he becomes a Father, will introduce the next Generation of Hazelton's to Firearms, Hunting and Extreme Long Range Shooting and GUN CONTROL!
PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT!
Love of Firearms, Hunting and Shooting is like learning to WALK! Just about every human born can Walk! But to become a Champion Sprinter, you must 1st be WILLING! Have a deep burning desire to become the BEST at what YOU DO! YEARS of training, proper diet, good health, the best available equipment and facilities and trainers you can get to TRAIN you, HELP you and ENCOURAGE YOU to MASTER your chosen event! And Complete Dedication to your chosen event! PRACTICE, PRACTICE and then MORE PRACTICE IS THE ONLY WAY TO MASTER ANYTHING! And having said that, PRACTICE SOME MORE! That's how CHAMPIONS are MADE at ANYTHING!
I SHOOT EACH & EVERY ROUND, NO MATTER WHAT DISTANCE like my very LIFE depends on it! I strongly suggest you do the same to become PROFICENT, CONSISTANT, and MASTER your capabilities! The fellas on here are a good bunch & always eager to help out & give advice to help others learn from OUR MISTAKES and LESSONS LEARNED the HARD WAY! In addition I strongly recommend reading "The Ultimate SNIPER" by MAJ. JOHN L. PLASTER, USAR (RET.) I consider this book A MUST for anyone interested, seriously interested in Rifle Marksmanship! After all, a Well Trained Rrifleman and his Rifle are the DEADLIEST WEAPON KNOWN to MAN! This book will cover EVERYTHING, from ranging, temperature, humidity, wind, spindrift, light itself, and even the correlation spin of the Earth itself! Everything you NEED to KNOW starting out! After that young man, it's PRACTICE, PRACTICE and MORE PRACTICE to become YOUR OWN CHAMPION!
That's all It Takes! Hope this Helps!
Theosmithjr
PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT!
Love of Firearms, Hunting and Shooting is like learning to WALK! Just about every human born can Walk! But to become a Champion Sprinter, you must 1st be WILLING! Have a deep burning desire to become the BEST at what YOU DO! YEARS of training, proper diet, good health, the best available equipment and facilities and trainers you can get to TRAIN you, HELP you and ENCOURAGE YOU to MASTER your chosen event! And Complete Dedication to your chosen event! PRACTICE, PRACTICE and then MORE PRACTICE IS THE ONLY WAY TO MASTER ANYTHING! And having said that, PRACTICE SOME MORE! That's how CHAMPIONS are MADE at ANYTHING!
I SHOOT EACH & EVERY ROUND, NO MATTER WHAT DISTANCE like my very LIFE depends on it! I strongly suggest you do the same to become PROFICENT, CONSISTANT, and MASTER your capabilities! The fellas on here are a good bunch & always eager to help out & give advice to help others learn from OUR MISTAKES and LESSONS LEARNED the HARD WAY! In addition I strongly recommend reading "The Ultimate SNIPER" by MAJ. JOHN L. PLASTER, USAR (RET.) I consider this book A MUST for anyone interested, seriously interested in Rifle Marksmanship! After all, a Well Trained Rrifleman and his Rifle are the DEADLIEST WEAPON KNOWN to MAN! This book will cover EVERYTHING, from ranging, temperature, humidity, wind, spindrift, light itself, and even the correlation spin of the Earth itself! Everything you NEED to KNOW starting out! After that young man, it's PRACTICE, PRACTICE and MORE PRACTICE to become YOUR OWN CHAMPION!
That's all It Takes! Hope this Helps!
Theosmithjr
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I agree with comments about the definition of "proficient". I have had no issue for years being able to hit small targets at 1000+ yards in various competitive venues, and I continue to participate in these sports which keeps the basic skills honed. Years ago, I decided that "proficient" meant making a cold bore, first shot hit on a game animal under a variety of varied conditions(ie. WIND) to 1000+ yards, it was a totally different ball game...with no margin for error. While I may have taken 1000's of practice shots and varmints at long range over the years, any degree of profiency I have achieved towards meeting this goal is based on the accumulated experience of about 100+ successful long range kills on game between 500 and 1200 yards that occurred over several years. Add to that 2-3x in pass ups due to uncertain conditions, and trying to understand how to close the gap, each one of these scenarios forms the basis of experience and knowledge to be applied to subsequent hunts. I think this is a sport that is 90% mental, and more about quality then quantity, and, I believe one could spent a lifetime becoming "proficient". That's OK for me.
Bruce Treloar
Well-Known Member
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I'm a lover of animals, target shooter and hunt game to 300 yards with top equipment to guarantee one shot kills. When the weather conditions and equipment is not perfect then I stay at home as I won't tolerate risking an injured animal. Try to find a longer range for testing as projectiles can become quite unstable when the velocity drops off. There was a graph based on projectile diameter, length and velocity printed in one of the Rifleman Publications which would help you find the right projectile. Go over all the information on reading wind. I use every tree's and grass as wind indicators.
