How Much energy is too little?

[dogz]

They even get a special season so they dont get cold.
I think more teachers are hunting than students though from what Ive seen and heard but they are having fun outdoors at least and spending time together

You're obviously from a very different world than I am. Up here in Montana the youths want those tags, they want to hunt they're not about to give them up to their teacher/mentors...

As for getting cold, well again you must be in a very different world as our youth up here get to hunt in some awfully sporty weather and they sure as heck deal with it very well!

 

[cabelasken]

I have only used too small of a caliber/rifle once in my lifetime and that was a 40 yd shot on a cow elk at a bad angle. I tried to drive the bullet from in front of the near ham to the opposite side shoulder, but when I pulled the trigger, the cow was starting to move and I hit the center of the near ham. That cow blended itself with the herd and although i caught up and put eyes on the wounded cow twice, i could never get a clean sight picture because of either brush or other animals too close for comfort. The round was from a 284 win and the bullet was a barnes TSX 140 grain. A few years earlier that combination took a nice 6X6 bull and the center of lungs shot produced complete penetration with a cloverleaf exit hole in the farside hide. I went over the shot on the cow for years thereafter and even went to my 300 WSM for more terminal performance. But eventually i figured shot placement was the key - I should have not pulled the trigger on that cow elk. For me, I will not use anything smaller than a 284 for elk sized game and the round must be capable of driving a 140 Gr mono to at least 3000 FPS.

 

[dogz]

That's not a case of too small of a round, it's poor placement. Heck @ 40 yds, give the back of your hand a smooch and when she peeks back doink her under the ear...

Just a thunk

(your correct, placement is the key)

 

[asd9055]

Before I resume my other activities:
There is no question that Elk has been taken with 22 cal bullets. I know a lady that hunts Elk in CO, she aways hunts with a 22-250. The higher caliber/velocities/energies that some either suggest or set as their own rule is not for the perfect shot. But the less than optimum.
We all heard the stories of people in AK killing Brown bear with a .223. Ask any guide in Alaska if they are willing to take you on a Brown Bear guided hunt with only a .223. I have not asked, but willing to guess the answer.
Long ago, I was interested in a brown bear hunt and visited the hunter extravaganza or somethng like that in Houston. Every one I asked, they suggested no less than 300WM, preferably larger, but something you shoot comfortably, accurately and can have a couple of quick follow up shots. Again, can you kill a brownie with smaller? Sure, and people have. Would you go on such a hunt with only a .223? Well that is your decision. I wouldn't.
I'll be back tomorrow to see how this eveloved
Cheers

 

[FEENIX]

correct as bad as it seems it is legal.
Worst part is the people shooting a 223 around here are usually 10 year olds that cant hit anything and have a rifle with to long of stock and haven't shot more than 20 rounds in there life.

To me it is a good guidance for .22 cal min threshold, So, if a larger cal, for instance a.308 Win using Berger's loaded ammo with 168 Classic Hunter, it is now good beyond 400Y.

 

[SheepShapeAK]

correct as bad as it seems it is legal.
Worst part is the people shooting a 223 around here are usually 10 year olds that cant hit anything and have a rifle with to long of stock and haven't shot more than 20 rounds in there life.

They drop caribou with .223 all the time up here. I mean, you could sneeze and drop a caribou. They're very dramatic.

 

[436]

Ok, one more... Here's what PO Ackley had to say on the subject of "killing power" and .22 calibers... not everything, but... you can pick up Manual #1 and see page 83 and more. I don't have a dog in the fight I have my own thoughts on the subject and it could go either way depending on circumstances at the time and of course the game.
Cheers.

 

[memtb]

That's not a case of too small of a round, it's poor placement. Heck @ 40 yds, give the back of your hand a smooch and when she peeks back doink her under the ear...

Just a thunk

(your correct, placement is the key)

Yes poor placement. In spite of that, a "chip shot" with an adequate cartridge and a bullet of normal/typical weight for caliber. Even if using mono's, I highly recommend using the typical weight fo caliber. Light bullets, even with mono's can have difficulties in raking shots if large, dense tissue is encountered.

Obviously, the poor shot can't be "so poor" as to the bullets path not passing through vital organs! memtb

 

[memtb]

Before I resume my other activities:
There is no question that Elk has been taken with 22 cal bullets. I know a lady that hunts Elk in CO, she aways hunts with a 22-250. The higher caliber/velocities/energies that some either suggest or set as their own rule is not for the perfect shot. But the less than optimum.
We all heard the stories of people in AK killing Brown bear with a .223. Ask any guide in Alaska if they are willing to take you on a Brown Bear guided hunt with only a .223. I have not asked, but willing to guess the answer.
Long ago, I was interested in a brown bear hunt and visited the hunter extravaganza or somethng like that in Houston. Every one I asked, they suggested no less than 300WM, preferably larger, but something you shoot comfortably, accurately and can have a couple of quick follow up shots. Again, can you kill a brownie with smaller? Sure, and people have. Would you go on such a hunt with only a .223? Well that is your decision. I wouldn't.
I'll be back tomorrow to see how this eveloved
Cheers

Better yet, ask that guide if he would choose that .223 over a typical stopping rifle. That alone should speak volumes! memtb

 

[FEENIX]

22 caliber centerfire of various cartridges, some as small as 22 Hornet gets used a lot in Texas and a lot of deer and pigs are killed with them.

Also, I'm hesitant to post because of some of the whack a doodle stuff that gets posted there but there's a compelling thread on Rokslide showing a lot of animals, up to elk, moose & bear with a .223 lots of photographic evidence showing some impressive wound channels.

I wouldn't use it for those applications but it further debunks the mythical 1000/1500# necessity for killing medium/big game.

Advancements in bullet construction paired with velocity have made a difference in terminal performance.

Did you calculate the FT-LBS on those claims? For chits and grins, I calculated 90g VLD out of .223 Remington and .223 WSSM using data from Berger ballistic calc and reloading manual at my altitude.

.223 Remington/2595 FPS MV = 951 FT-LBS at 300Y/1202 FT-LBS @ 100Y.

.223 WSSM/3142 FPS MV = 1022 FT-LBS @ 600Y/1438 FT-LBS @ 300Y.

 

[Mike D Texas]

Did you calculate the FT-LBS on those claims? For chits and grins, I calculated 90g VLD out of .223 Remington and .223 WSSM using data from Berger ballistic calc and reloading manual at my altitude.

.223 Remington/2595 FPS MV = 951 FT-LBS at 300Y/1202 FT-LBS @ 100Y.

.223 WSSM/3142 FPS MV = 1022 FT-LBS @ 600Y/1438 FT-LBS @ 300Y.

I did not. Most of the shots on that post in particular are using the 77 grain TMK @ an average of 2700fps.

And some are shooting well beyond 300 yards.

 

[FEENIX]

I did not. Most of the shots on that post in particular are using the 77 grain TMK @ an average of 2700fps.

And some are shooting well beyond 300 yards.

Based on your input, 77g TMK (G1=.362 between 2500-300 FPS).

 

[M1A1ABRAMS]

You're obviously from a very different world than I am. Up here in Montana the youths want those tags, they want to hunt they're not about to give them up to their teacher/mentors...

As for getting cold, well again you must be in a very different world as our youth up here get to hunt in some awfully sporty weather and they sure as heck deal with it very well!

I'm quite impressed with the pictures of youth taking game just on this forum. And some pretty good distances also. I don't recall any using a 22 cal. At least on large game.

 

[memtb]

Just to attempt to clarify my stand on ft/lbs energy.

The OP was pertaining to ft/lbs energy, which has been a term used, IMO, incorrectly for many years.

I will continue to contest the term ft/lbs as incorrect, a misuse of the energy value of a projectile imparted upon a target….be it flesh or inanimate. And yes, today's modern bullets pushed at high velocities impart a lot of energy onto/into the target……it's just not ft/lbs energy.

I, in my original response, even presented a link to a good source of information debunking the use of the term ft/lbs……not energy. I even, though perhaps not the best form of discussion, in a later post stated that the tearing apart of vital organs with your bare hands will kill. There is still energy imparted upon the organ or material……just not ft/lbs.

My "heartburn" comes from the use of ft/lbs as an "end all" method/value to determine the potential lethality of a given cartridge, caliber, bullet, ect…..when there are and have been better terms/methods to describe the potential lethality of a given cartridge. Kinetic Energy or even the Taylor KO Values would be better descriptions of a bullets potential lethality.

So, I'm not a denier of energy…..only the use of ft/lbs energy as the method currently used in our firearm terminologies. memtb