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Heavy Bolt Lift

I have hesitated to weigh in on this thread because I am not familiar with BAT actions. However, I am an accomplished engineer and a precision smith and I think I can add a few thoughts and observations for you to ponder. I have read every part of this thread that you added.

If you look closely at the way a bolt functions while you operate it, you will see that it serves many purposes but only three involve any forces of the type you describe and only two of those are significant to your experience. These are:
1. The extraction cam on the action that engages the base of the bolt handle when the bolt is opened. This minor cam pulls the bolt slightly rearward and serves to pull the fired case loose from the chamber after firing. A tight brass (too much pressure) or a rough cam surface on either the action or on the bolt would increase bolt lift force. But you experience this problem even on an empty chamber when there is no tight cartridge to react against so I doubt that is your issue.
2. Opening the bolt also pulls back the firing pin in preparation for the next shot. This is accomplished with a cam in the rear of the bolt under the shroud. The shroud prevents the cocking piece at the rear end of the firing pin from turning thus forcing the cocking piece rearward against the cam at the rear of the bolt. Once fully opened, the cocking piece engages a flat section beside the cam ramp which then holds the firing pin rearward as the bolt is pulled rearward to fully open it. When the bolt is closed, the trigger sear engages the cocking piece and holds it back until the trigger is pulled. If you remove the trigger or pull it while closing the bolt, the cocking piece (and attached firing pin) will not be held reward and will slide down the cam ramp at the rear of the bolt. That's why your bolt closes the rest of the way down under spring force when you closed it without the trigger engaged.

In my opinion, it is the forces that are in play at the cam at the rear of the bolt that you are feeling. It is certainly NOT any part of the trigger, or scope base screws, or action screws. Your description rules all of these out.

So, if I can be so bold as to conclude that this is where your problem is, I can suggest a few things to look for:

1.Quite obviously, the firing pin spring force is a major determinant of the bolt lifting force. The stronger the spring, the harder the bolt lift force.

2. The steeper the cam ramp at the rear of the bolt, the harder the bolt lift force.

3. The more friction in the cam the harder the lift.

4. Other frictions can also add to the required lift force such as internal friction on the firing pin spring inside the bolt, internal friction on the threads in the shroud (which always turn as the bolt opens or closes), or on the sliding surfaces of the cocking piece inside the shroud.

My advice to you is to take the bolt apart and examine it closely to fully understand what I have described, then make sure that all these parts slide smoothly, that there are no burrs or rough surfaces or edges, and that they are all properly lubricated with a very light gun grease, and then assemble the parts again and watch these various parts move while feeling the forces involved.

If after doing all this, you still have a problem, I would give careful consideration to your own sensitivity to the issue. It may well be that while you think the force is excessive, others might think it is just fine. We are all different and thank God for that! If this is where you end up, it might also help to remember what it happening as you lift that bolt. It's important heavy work. You are extracting a fired case, you are camming the firing pin up into the cocked position, and you are engaging the pin into a detent that holds it in place while you pull the bolt rearward. These are all important functions and a little effort to make them happen is warranted and a good thing.

I must assume that Wheeler is correct and the BAT has a stiffer firing pin spring. He certainly knows his stuff. But he didn't mention the cam angle and a steeper angle would also increase the force. But that isn't a bad thing. Once you understand that you are just cocking a very fast firing pin, you might come to LOVE IT!
 
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Bats do not have a steep cocking cam helix. Especially ones made more than 3 years ago. I used to recut the helix steeper to time them on the older models. These are 90 degrees bolts as well.
 
Bats do not have a steep cocking cam helix. Especially ones made more than 3 years ago. I used to recut the helix steeper to time them on the older models. These are 90 degrees bolts as well.
I learn something every day. Why not from someone as knowledgeable as you.

So how does a bat action cock the firing pin? Surely it does that on lifting the bolt.

Or are you simply pointing out that the cam on a BAT is not any steeper than other designs?

Thanks for the clarification.
 
I have hesitated to weigh in on this thread because I am not familiar with BAT actions. However, I am an accomplished engineer and a precision smith and I think I can add a few thoughts and observations for you to ponder. I have read every part of this thread that you added.

If you look closely at the way a bolt functions while you operate it, you will see that it serves many purposes but only three involve any forces of the type you describe and only two of those are significant to your experience. These are:
1. The extraction cam on the action that engages the base of the bolt handle when the bolt is opened. This minor cam pulls the bolt slightly rearward and serves to pull the fired case loose from the chamber after firing. A tight brass (too much pressure) or a rough cam surface on either the action or on the bolt would increase bolt lift force. But you experience this problem even on an empty chamber when there is no tight cartridge to react against so I doubt that is your issue.
2. Opening the bolt also pulls back the firing pin in preparation for the next shot. This is accomplished with a cam in the rear of the bolt under the shroud. The shroud prevents the cocking piece at the rear end of the firing pin from turning thus forcing the cocking piece rearward against the cam at the rear of the bolt. Once fully opened, the cocking piece engages a flat section beside the cam ramp which then holds the firing pin rearward as the bolt is pulled rearward to fully open it. When the bolt is closed, the trigger sear engages the cocking piece and holds it back until the trigger is pulled. If you remove the trigger or pull it while closing the bolt, the cocking piece (and attached firing pin) will not be held reward and will slide down the cam ramp at the rear of the bolt. That's why your bolt closes the rest of the way down under spring force when you closed it without the trigger engaged.

In my opinion, it is the forces that are in play at the cam at the rear of the bolt that you are feeling. It is certainly NOT any part of the trigger, or scope base screws, or action screws. Your description rules all of these out.

So, if I can be so bold as to conclude that this is where your problem is, I can suggest a few things to look for:

1.Quite obviously, the firing pin spring force is a major determinant of the bolt lifting force. The stronger the spring, the harder the bolt lift force.

2. The steeper the cam ramp at the rear of the bolt, the harder the bolt lift force.

3. The more friction in the cam the harder the lift.

4. Other frictions can also add to the required lift force such as internal friction on the firing pin spring inside the bolt, internal friction on the threads in the shroud (which always turn as the bolt opens or closes), or on the sliding surfaces of the cocking piece inside the shroud.

My advice to you is to take the bolt apart and examine it closely to fully understand what I have described, then make sure that all these parts slide smoothly, that there are no burrs or rough surfaces or edges, and that they are all properly lubricated with a very light gun grease, and then assemble the parts again and watch these various parts move while feeling the forces involved.

If after doing all this, you still have a problem, I would give careful consideration to your own sensitivity to the issue. It may well be that while you think the force is excessive, others might think it is just fine. We are all different and thank God for that! If this is where you end up, it might also help to remember what it happening as you lift that bolt. It's important heavy work. You are extracting a fired case, you are camming the firing pin up into the cocked position, and you are engaging the pin into a detent that holds it in place while you pull the bolt rearward. These are all important functions and a little effort to make them happen is warranted and a good thing.

I must assume that Wheeler is correct and the BAT has a stiffer firing pin spring. He certainly knows his stuff. But he didn't mention the cam angle and a steeper angle would also increase the force. But that isn't a bad thing. Once you understand that you are just cocking a very fast firing pin, you might come to LOVE IT!

some great points. especially WRT Our own felt sensitivity I remember when I got my Sako 85. I wasn't used to the pronounced felt firmness on the bolt. I actually went to my local gun dealer and tested the actions on other 85s. Once I realized it was similar I stopped worrying about it. Don't really feel it now. However, wondering if the OP could run the bolt without the spring and firing pin and then cycle a Spent (or dummy) cartridge to test the extractor? Then remove the extractor and replace the pin and spring and then cycle a spent (or dummy) cartridge to help eliminate these pieces?
 
I learn something every day. Why not from someone as knowledgeable as you.

So how does a bat action cock the firing pin? Surely it does that on lifting the bolt.

Or are you simply pointing out that the cam on a BAT is not any steeper than other designs?

Thanks for the clarification.
Yes they cock on open, and yeas the 2 lug ramps are not any more aggressive that many others. Its actually as shallow as you can make and still time them well.
 
Yes they cock on open, and yeas the 2 lug ramps are not any more aggressive that many others. Its actually as shallow as you can make and still time them well.

OK, understood then Alex. Thank you for that info. It has filled in an open question of mine. I hope it also helps the OP narrow this down.

On the other hand, if the BAT quality is anything like what I have experienced with other custom actions, then he will probably find that it's just different from his previous experience and if so, I hope he will come to like it in time. Knowing why the bolt lift is a bit heavier is at least half the way to accepting it and perhaps even embracing it.
 
There very well may be a problem. Custom actions have a lot of problems actually. Bats are not immune but are the most consistent in my experience.
 
There very well may be a problem. Custom actions have a lot of problems actually. Bats are not immune but are the most consistent in my experience.

Sorry for the late response gents! I'll go ahead and say thank you to ALL who posted and took the time to try and help the situation. I wish I could reply to every post individually just out of respect. But let me see if I can clear a few things up.

I took the firing pin and spring out of the bolt body and attempted to cycle the bolt without any spring pressure. WOW. The bolt moved by a feather but once the bolt is in the down position, there is NO PLAY in the bolt at all. It is rock solid yet can be operated with a slight breeze.

The gun has been entirely disassembled and NO screws, bolts, (no trigger hanger), triggers, rings, etc are attached. It is just receiver and barrel. Everything is just so ridiculously smooth with this action and it's made so well but still MUCH heavier than I would like.

One thing I noticed right away is that the bolt is HARD AS **** to take apart. Getting the firing assembly out of the bolt body takes a couple a tough gloves and some muscle. I've owned alot of rem 700's and none of the bolts are this tight to disassemble. At this point I DEFINITELY believe that the spring tension from the firing pen is the problem I have. If I can get my hands on a trigger gauge to measure how many lbs it takes to operate the bolt after dry firing, I'll post my results and see if this is "normal".

I understand the spring needs to be on the heavier/beefy side for positive ignition in such a large action, but I've seen plenty of guys at comps operate 338 sized actions with one finger or their thumb. My rifle weighs upwards of 20# and I cant stay on target while operating the bolt from the prone position. I just have a hard time believing that THIS MUCH pressure is needed for reliability.
 
If I can get my hands on a trigger gauge to measure how many lbs it takes to operate the bolt after dry firing.

To make this measurement meaningful, you will also have to make sure that the force is being applied at 90 degrees to the moment and you will need to measure the length of the bolt handle from the bolt centerline to the measurement point. If you can figure out how to do it, a torque wrench will provide a better measurement. I'd probably try to put a torque wrench on the front of the action in place of the barrel. In fact, your scale (perhaps a fishing scale?) might work better if used this way too. The reaction torque will be the same as the opening torque except in the opposite direction.
 
Sorry for the late response gents! I'll go ahead and say thank you to ALL who posted and took the time to try and help the situation. I wish I could reply to every post individually just out of respect. But let me see if I can clear a few things up.

I took the firing pin and spring out of the bolt body and attempted to cycle the bolt without any spring pressure. WOW. The bolt moved by a feather but once the bolt is in the down position, there is NO PLAY in the bolt at all. It is rock solid yet can be operated with a slight breeze.

The gun has been entirely disassembled and NO screws, bolts, (no trigger hanger), triggers, rings, etc are attached. It is just receiver and barrel. Everything is just so ridiculously smooth with this action and it's made so well but still MUCH heavier than I would like.

One thing I noticed right away is that the bolt is HARD AS **** to take apart. Getting the firing assembly out of the bolt body takes a couple a tough gloves and some muscle. I've owned alot of rem 700's and none of the bolts are this tight to disassemble. At this point I DEFINITELY believe that the spring tension from the firing pen is the problem I have. If I can get my hands on a trigger gauge to measure how many lbs it takes to operate the bolt after dry firing, I'll post my results and see if this is "normal".

I understand the spring needs to be on the heavier/beefy side for positive ignition in such a large action, but I've seen plenty of guys at comps operate 338 sized actions with one finger or their thumb. My rifle weighs upwards of 20# and I cant stay on target while operating the bolt from the prone position. I just have a hard time believing that THIS MUCH pressure is needed for reliability.
Is there a possibility that the firing pin/bolt shroud assembly is allowed to screw too far into the bolt when assembled? This would over compress the firing pin spring. I've never saw that sort of thing but anything is possible.
 
I think something is bound up, I remove and install the firing pin assembly's by hand easily.

I'm impressed. They say that experience is the best and toughest teacher because she gives the test before the lesson.

I am old, but I am also 6ft3 and 220 pounds of hard muscle and bone. My kids, grandkids, and their friends all say I have "old man strength". I cannot remove the pin on a 700 by hand let alone a BAT. I made a fixture many years ago and later bought a Kleinendorst removal tool. The tool makes it easy. But it doesn't look like it would fit the shroud on a BAT. I later modified my tool to include the recess to fit a Defiance bolt (my fav). I suppose one could do the same for the BAT.

On that note, I see that BAT sells one on their website for $50. Coincidentally, I also see that it is made for BAT by Kleinendorst. If I had the OP's problem, I'd be buying one of those yesterday! Hint Hint!

It's hard to find how things are bound up when you are all flexed up for a wrestling match. With the tool, you could remove it slowly and feel/examine it closely for any issues.
 
Is there a possibility that the firing pin/bolt shroud assembly is allowed to screw too far into the bolt when assembled? This would over compress the firing pin spring. I've never saw that sort of thing but anything is possible.

It's a valid thought. I have overscrewed a 700 pin in the past out of curiosity. It's hard to imagine doing it by accident. It's pretty easy to see where it belongs. But I have also noted that some pins can be overturned more than others.

In fact, if I were the OP, I might just take a look at how it works with the pin turned out one full turn.
 
It's a valid thought. I have overscrewed a 700 pin in the past out of curiosity. It's hard to imagine doing it by accident. It's pretty easy to see where it belongs. But I have also noted that some pins can be overturned more than others.

In fact, if I were the OP, I might just take a look at how it works with the pin turned out one full turn.
I think it would certainly be worth a try.
 
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