Hammer bullets WTH

[choprzrul]

Hammer's 170gr HHT requires a minimum of 1:8" twist rate for terminal stability.....NOT ballistic stability. You could very well have a perfectly stable projectile punching ragged holes, but that in no way means it's terminally stable as designed by the manufacturer.

I do see, in looking at Browning rifles as an example, their X-Bolt 2 Medallion has a 1:9.5" twist in 7mm PRC while their Mountain Pro shows 1:8" twist in 7 PRC. Even if the rifle/barrel manufacturer states 1:8" twist......and it's really 1:8.25" twist, that 170gr HHT may very well not have the terminal performance as designed by Hammer.

So again, I ask what is the twist rate of the barrel you are using? Did you manually check it to ensure it has the minimum required twist rate for that 170gr Hammer HHT?

.

 

[Quintus]

Personally, I believe in: "There's what kills, and what kills well".

I prefer a bullet that is not more so dependent upon perfect shot placement or everything else going right. I prefer a bullet that is forgiving and still performs well when things don't go as planned.

There's always more to the death than death simply occurring, alone. If his shot placement was crap, but the animal still died relatively quick and very effectively made up for the shot placement error by creating wide wounding and a large amount of shock, that's a good bullet.

Conversely, if the shot placement was great, impact velocity was well within the limitations of the particular bullet, and every other box checked, yet the animal still ran and died much slower than desired, even with follow up shots, that leaves more to be desired. It just does. Does it mean it's a bad bullet? Not necessarily, because anomalies do still happen. It's when this sort of thing happens with frequency with this bullet or type of bullet that it becomes an issue we can tie to the bullet rather than other things.

The bottom line here is that I don't think it's right to dismiss the concerns of the OP, nor do I think it's right to flat out say it's a bad bullet based solely on this experience. Both may be true, but we should be willing to explore both possibilities, rationally and logically, rather than point fingers and jump to the wrong conclusions and getting emotional with responses.

There's even arguments going on with side tangents lol.

Certainly we can do better.

This exactly. The thing about bullet performance like any of the hunting shooting products out there, it is subjective. One persons 'perfect performance is anothers 'near' complete failure. Sadly, rather than report what happened and explain a conclusion, in many cases dramatic conclusions are tossed out with zero supporting observations. Call it trolling, or click bait, or whatever. Pick any popular item or opinion, bash it a bit, and watch the sparks. Bullet brands, scope brands, backpack, boots, cartridges, heck bullet diameters. They have all been argued till some folks are frothing at the mouth. Ironically, most of the positions are right and or wrong given any set of personal parameters. It seems society is currently not content without a good dose of daily gaslighting and my first impression of the original post gave me the impression this was just yesterdays dose.

 

[Petey308]

Hammer's 170gr HHT requires a minimum of 1:8" twist rate for terminal stability.....NOT ballistic stability. You could very well have a perfectly stable projectile punching ragged holes, but that in no way means it's terminally stable as designed by the manufacturer.

I do see, in looking at Browning rifles as an example, their X-Bolt 2 Medallion has a 1:9.5" twist in 7mm PRC while their Mountain Pro shows 1:8" twist in 7 PRC. Even if the rifle/barrel manufacturer states 1:8" twist......and it's really 1:8.25" twist, that 170gr HHT may very well not have the terminal performance as designed by Hammer.

So again, I ask what is the twist rate of the barrel you are using? Did you manually check it to ensure it has the minimum required twist rate for that 170gr Hammer HHT?

.

Is the twist rate really what created the issue here? Is this bullet really that sensitive and dependent upon being just right on the twist rate? If true, could that not be viewed as a negative of this bullet design?

What if he tells you it's a 1:7 twist? Where do you go then?

Just my initial thoughts to your post.

 

[CRP003]

Simply better bullets?

 

[fordy]

Hammer bullets are tested by lots of people. There is a guy in Australia that shot hundreds and hundreds of animals and verifies them. He dissects them basically. He isn't sponsored, just a good guy helping them from what I hear at my gunrange. So hopefully it was maybe just a wrong combination?

Gday
Crp003
Where do we start hmmmm


In reply to Above is a good place

That's me & yep I helped the hammerboys on the level of understanding that got them to understand how & why somethings occur as they did me or should say Brian & emphasis on somethings which ultimately raise the bar on what a pill can achieve , not just kill a critter ( depends on what one wants yes that I accept but disagree if one quotes the best or outstanding etc ) now hammer have some outstanding pills & some poor so Leeds us to your next part

I am not understanding this very well, I know even in same calibers different weight perform differently but that many failures lead me to think something has changed.

Yes things have changed as among other things acceptance or whatever has crept in or I never saw it in the first place as looking back as I was fixated on the better pills so my bad but next part is more telling

I am starting to wonder if the original ones I used are internally different or the metallurgy is different? I don't know, just call Steven he has always been there for me. Maybe tomorrow I'll let him know about this thread and see if he can help.

Metallurgy while it is somewhat important but not what I once thought or to the level I believed it important but I get that alloy change is floating about in the circles from Steve's comments he's made when he tried defending issues with tips & others things so yes I get your concerns but not mine as much as it once was ( I have supporting evidence of just different tips doing different terminal things yes same alloy vastly different results )

I have documented evidence that you can get/ produce pop from the ceb raptors ( they have been tinkered with so you guys can't access them but it's very impressive , my mate I believe is going to talk to them on what we did ) that were the best 6.5 cal pills in the 80 to 116 gr pills weight range & a meplat to die for across a way larger window than hammers or any other shedding for that matter I tested

So take alloy for what it's worth to me it's more in the design & the Marriage of these together

Now without getting to bogged down that's the key with any brand & as little as 10 thou hp depth or champer angle ( if has one , ) nose profile etc makes a huge difference when you take notice of these differences terminally
Yes I measure & can show easily

Now onto other changes
The tips most know my thoughts on them as overall there a weak link but on the prototypes as they acted incredibly consistent terminally regardless of the impact resistance yes they were very very good but they were another companies so hammers made their own
Which I tested 3 different tip materials for them & only one passed but that polymer was also replaced & I believe you guys have that now anyway I found flaws in that tip material & subsequently the 3mm tips ( the 3mmare worse than the 2mm ) once they were received by me & a dogs breakfast that turned into on HT although through chatting with Brian it was somewhat fixed ( but terminally the new tips & pill combo is not in the class of the original & have evidence supporting that also so a massive step backwards )

On Hollow points
hammer now remove the oil these days & that is detrimental to terminal preformance & documented also along with many other brands & why overall a additive to the hp has taken many a brand not only hammers to a more consistent level terminally

The next part that's changed is one I totally don't get & that's on the dangerous game pills
So without getting to bogged down in all of that but these pills should never be released prior to testing end of story!!!!! Well I thought so

A few simple pictures of what is actually the case should sort out the outstanding part

This 450gr pill was not tested in Australia @ time of launch the 456 was



& here's why the pill above was redesigned as it gave poor preformance on critters & they were in easy situations not what's needed when it goes pear shape ( I've got critter pictures also )


Now the advertised pill ( the 450gr one ) was later tested in Australia on buff & not by me but here's 2 of the shanks that failed to preform to a dangerous game bullets level or even getting close to it as these show very poor structural integrity & results were very poor also


especially anything that has legs as per description as put that into a elephant or rhino , buff , hippo etc & lookout yet watch it work with well placed shots but that's not one needs it's a cover as many bases as possible & don't get me started on other false information that's advertised re solids

Now I also tested this 450gr pill & it failed on simple cows with only 14in of penertration yet I also got 4feet that gave ok results but not outstanding
I have documentation on that also

Trust is a big word & covers a lot of bases yes work that out for oneself & guys like RH shouldn't be put into a situation that the pill will let them down as enough going on in the world of variables you don't need pill failure on top of it
Jm2cw



Now to the op so a big exit wound was observed so pill worked right or whatever was put out

Yes don't be quick to jump to conclusions
Maybe it worked
Maybe it penciled for first lobe or 2

Yes a lot can happen in the terminal world & repartition is key & a level one likes or accepts is also important
So until the
transition zone is worked out &or
did pop occur&
Where it all occurred ( pop is kinda a energy transfer but another day or detonation point is one that McGuire uses which I'm warming to that as being the same or close to pop but let's not get derailed to much lol )
It's hard to classify a pill did this or that unless measurements are taken let alone looked into but by understanding parts above you'll understand that different levels occur & why so choose wisely & trust is a big part of my world

Cheers

 

[Quintus]

Is the twist rate really what created the issue here? Is this bullet really that sensitive and dependent upon being just right on the twist rate? If true, could that not be viewed as a negative of this bullet design?

What if he tells you it's a 1:7 twist? Where do you go then?

Just my initial thoughts to your post.

The question I still have is "what is the real issue here?" The OP eventually stated center punched with a large exit. It sounds like in this case the bullet functioned as designed, but the results are just not what the user is looking for outside of resulting dead game. That's ok. He even has good options to fall back on for his next hunt.

 

[CRP003]

Gday
Crp003
Where do we start hmmmm


In reply to Above is a good place

That's me & yep I helped the hammerboys on the level of understanding that got them to understand how & why somethings occur as they did me or should say Brian & emphasis on somethings which ultimately raise the bar on what a pill can achieve , not just kill a critter ( depends on what one wants yes that I accept but disagree if one quotes the best or outstanding etc ) now hammer have some outstanding pills & some poor so Leeds us to your next part

Yes things have changed as among other things acceptance or whatever has crept in or I never saw it in the first place as looking back as I was fixated on the better pills so my bad but next part is more telling

Metallurgy while it is somewhat important but not what I once thought or to the level I believed it important but I get that alloy change is floating about in the circles from Steve's comments he's made when he tried defending issues with tips & others things so yes I get your concerns but not mine as much as it once was ( I have supporting evidence of just different tips doing different terminal things yes same alloy vastly different results )

I have documented evidence that you can get/ produce pop from the ceb raptors ( they have been tinkered with so you guys can't access them but it's very impressive , my mate I believe is going to talk to them on what we did ) that were the best 6.5 cal pills in the 80 to 116 gr pills weight range & a meplat to die for across a way larger window than hammers or any other shedding for that matter I tested

So take alloy for what it's worth to me it's more in the design & the Marriage of these together

Now without getting to bogged down that's the key with any brand & as little as 10 thou hp depth or champer angle ( if has one , ) nose profile etc makes a huge difference when you take notice of these differences terminally
Yes I measure & can show easily

Now onto other changes
The tips most know my thoughts on them as overall there a weak link but on the prototypes as they acted incredibly consistent terminally regardless of the impact resistance yes they were very very good but they were another companies so hammers made their own
Which I tested 3 different tip materials for them & only one passed but that polymer was also replaced & I believe you guys have that now anyway I found flaws in that tip material & subsequently the 3mm tips ( the 3mmare worse than the 2mm ) once they were received by me & a dogs breakfast that turned into on HT although through chatting with Brian it was somewhat fixed ( but terminally the new tips & pill combo is not in the class of the original & have evidence supporting that also so a massive step backwards )

On Hollow points
hammer now remove the oil these days & that is detrimental to terminal preformance & documented also along with many other brands & why overall a additive to the hp has taken many a brand not only hammers to a more consistent level terminally

The next part that's changed is one I totally don't get & that's on the dangerous game pills
So without getting to bogged down in all of that but these pills should never be released prior to testing end of story!!!!! Well I thought so

A few simple pictures of what is actually the case should sort out the outstanding part

This 450gr pill was not tested in Australia @ time of launch the 456 was
View attachment 637602


& here's why the pill above was redesigned as it gave poor preformance on critters & they were in easy situations not what's needed when it goes pear shape ( I've got critter pictures also )
View attachment 637603

Now the advertised pill ( the 450gr one ) was later tested in Australia on buff & not by me but here's 2 of the shanks that failed to preform to a dangerous game bullets level or even getting close to it as these show very poor structural integrity & results were very poor also

View attachment 637604
especially anything that has legs as per description as put that into a elephant or rhino , buff , hippo etc & lookout yet watch it work with well placed shots but that's not one needs it's a cover as many bases as possible & don't get me started on other false information that's advertised re solids

Now I also tested this 450gr pill & it failed on simple cows with only 14in of penertration yet I also got 4feet that gave ok results but not outstanding
I have documentation on that also

Trust is a big word & covers a lot of bases yes work that out for oneself & guys like RH shouldn't be put into a situation that the pill will let them down as enough going on in the world of variables you don't need pill failure on top of it
Jm2cw



Now to the op so a big exit wound was observed so pill worked right or whatever was put out

Yes don't be quick to jump to conclusions
Maybe it worked
Maybe it penciled for first lobe or 2

Yes a lot can happen in the terminal world & repartition is key & a level one likes or accepts is also important
So until the
transition zone is worked out &or
did pop occur&
Where it all occurred ( pop is kinda a energy transfer but another day or detonation point is one that McGuire uses which I'm warming to that as being the same or close to pop but let's not get derailed to much lol )
It's hard to classify a pill did this or that unless measurements are taken let alone looked into but by understanding parts above you'll understand that different levels occur & why so choose wisely & trust is a big part of my world

Cheers

Thank you for the explanation and clarification!

 

[cohunt]

Gday
Crp003
Where do we start hmmmm


In reply to Above is a good place

That's me & yep I helped the hammerboys on the level of understanding that got them to understand how & why somethings occur as they did me or should say Brian & emphasis on somethings which ultimately raise the bar on what a pill can achieve , not just kill a critter ( depends on what one wants yes that I accept but disagree if one quotes the best or outstanding etc ) now hammer have some outstanding pills & some poor so Leeds us to your next part

Yes things have changed as among other things acceptance or whatever has crept in or I never saw it in the first place as looking back as I was fixated on the better pills so my bad but next part is more telling

Metallurgy while it is somewhat important but not what I once thought or to the level I believed it important but I get that alloy change is floating about in the circles from Steve's comments he's made when he tried defending issues with tips & others things so yes I get your concerns but not mine as much as it once was ( I have supporting evidence of just different tips doing different terminal things yes same alloy vastly different results )

I have documented evidence that you can get/ produce pop from the ceb raptors ( they have been tinkered with so you guys can't access them but it's very impressive , my mate I believe is going to talk to them on what we did ) that were the best 6.5 cal pills in the 80 to 116 gr pills weight range & a meplat to die for across a way larger window than hammers or any other shedding for that matter I tested

So take alloy for what it's worth to me it's more in the design & the Marriage of these together

Now without getting to bogged down that's the key with any brand & as little as 10 thou hp depth or champer angle ( if has one , ) nose profile etc makes a huge difference when you take notice of these differences terminally
Yes I measure & can show easily

Now onto other changes
The tips most know my thoughts on them as overall there a weak link but on the prototypes as they acted incredibly consistent terminally regardless of the impact resistance yes they were very very good but they were another companies so hammers made their own
Which I tested 3 different tip materials for them & only one passed but that polymer was also replaced & I believe you guys have that now anyway I found flaws in that tip material & subsequently the 3mm tips ( the 3mmare worse than the 2mm ) once they were received by me & a dogs breakfast that turned into on HT although through chatting with Brian it was somewhat fixed ( but terminally the new tips & pill combo is not in the class of the original & have evidence supporting that also so a massive step backwards )

On Hollow points
hammer now remove the oil these days & that is detrimental to terminal preformance & documented also along with many other brands & why overall a additive to the hp has taken many a brand not only hammers to a more consistent level terminally

The next part that's changed is one I totally don't get & that's on the dangerous game pills
So without getting to bogged down in all of that but these pills should never be released prior to testing end of story!!!!! Well I thought so

A few simple pictures of what is actually the case should sort out the outstanding part

This 450gr pill was not tested in Australia @ time of launch the 456 was
View attachment 637602


& here's why the pill above was redesigned as it gave poor preformance on critters & they were in easy situations not what's needed when it goes pear shape ( I've got critter pictures also )
View attachment 637603

Now the advertised pill ( the 450gr one ) was later tested in Australia on buff & not by me but here's 2 of the shanks that failed to preform to a dangerous game bullets level or even getting close to it as these show very poor structural integrity & results were very poor also

View attachment 637604
especially anything that has legs as per description as put that into a elephant or rhino , buff , hippo etc & lookout yet watch it work with well placed shots but that's not one needs it's a cover as many bases as possible & don't get me started on other false information that's advertised re solids

Now I also tested this 450gr pill & it failed on simple cows with only 14in of penertration yet I also got 4feet that gave ok results but not outstanding
I have documentation on that also

Trust is a big word & covers a lot of bases yes work that out for oneself & guys like RH shouldn't be put into a situation that the pill will let them down as enough going on in the world of variables you don't need pill failure on top of it
Jm2cw



Now to the op so a big exit wound was observed so pill worked right or whatever was put out

Yes don't be quick to jump to conclusions
Maybe it worked
Maybe it penciled for first lobe or 2

Yes a lot can happen in the terminal world & repartition is key & a level one likes or accepts is also important
So until the
transition zone is worked out &or
did pop occur&
Where it all occurred ( pop is kinda a energy transfer but another day or detonation point is one that McGuire uses which I'm warming to that as being the same or close to pop but let's not get derailed to much lol )
It's hard to classify a pill did this or that unless measurements are taken let alone looked into but by understanding parts above you'll understand that different levels occur & why so choose wisely & trust is a big part of my world

Cheers

Dang fordy, I knew you tested the hht bullets(prototype) and said they seemed to perform same if not better than the std hh bullets ---- I didn't realize they had changed the tip design since then (for the worse?!)
I've had good luck with the hh and have been building loads for the hht's too--- but if they take away from performance id rather not have the extra bc from the tip--- guess next time I should follow threads more closely

 

[Quintus]

Gday
Crp003
Where do we start hmmmm


In reply to Above is a good place

That's me & yep I helped the hammerboys on the level of understanding that got them to understand how & why somethings occur as they did me or should say Brian & emphasis on somethings which ultimately raise the bar on what a pill can achieve , not just kill a critter ( depends on what one wants yes that I accept but disagree if one quotes the best or outstanding etc ) now hammer have some outstanding pills & some poor so Leeds us to your next part

Yes things have changed as among other things acceptance or whatever has crept in or I never saw it in the first place as looking back as I was fixated on the better pills so my bad but next part is more telling

Metallurgy while it is somewhat important but not what I once thought or to the level I believed it important but I get that alloy change is floating about in the circles from Steve's comments he's made when he tried defending issues with tips & others things so yes I get your concerns but not mine as much as it once was ( I have supporting evidence of just different tips doing different terminal things yes same alloy vastly different results )

I have documented evidence that you can get/ produce pop from the ceb raptors ( they have been tinkered with so you guys can't access them but it's very impressive , my mate I believe is going to talk to them on what we did ) that were the best 6.5 cal pills in the 80 to 116 gr pills weight range & a meplat to die for across a way larger window than hammers or any other shedding for that matter I tested

So take alloy for what it's worth to me it's more in the design & the Marriage of these together

Now without getting to bogged down that's the key with any brand & as little as 10 thou hp depth or champer angle ( if has one , ) nose profile etc makes a huge difference when you take notice of these differences terminally
Yes I measure & can show easily

Now onto other changes
The tips most know my thoughts on them as overall there a weak link but on the prototypes as they acted incredibly consistent terminally regardless of the impact resistance yes they were very very good but they were another companies so hammers made their own
Which I tested 3 different tip materials for them & only one passed but that polymer was also replaced & I believe you guys have that now anyway I found flaws in that tip material & subsequently the 3mm tips ( the 3mmare worse than the 2mm ) once they were received by me & a dogs breakfast that turned into on HT although through chatting with Brian it was somewhat fixed ( but terminally the new tips & pill combo is not in the class of the original & have evidence supporting that also so a massive step backwards )

On Hollow points
hammer now remove the oil these days & that is detrimental to terminal preformance & documented also along with many other brands & why overall a additive to the hp has taken many a brand not only hammers to a more consistent level terminally

The next part that's changed is one I totally don't get & that's on the dangerous game pills
So without getting to bogged down in all of that but these pills should never be released prior to testing end of story!!!!! Well I thought so

A few simple pictures of what is actually the case should sort out the outstanding part

This 450gr pill was not tested in Australia @ time of launch the 456 was
View attachment 637602


& here's why the pill above was redesigned as it gave poor preformance on critters & they were in easy situations not what's needed when it goes pear shape ( I've got critter pictures also )
View attachment 637603

Now the advertised pill ( the 450gr one ) was later tested in Australia on buff & not by me but here's 2 of the shanks that failed to preform to a dangerous game bullets level or even getting close to it as these show very poor structural integrity & results were very poor also

View attachment 637604
especially anything that has legs as per description as put that into a elephant or rhino , buff , hippo etc & lookout yet watch it work with well placed shots but that's not one needs it's a cover as many bases as possible & don't get me started on other false information that's advertised re solids

Now I also tested this 450gr pill & it failed on simple cows with only 14in of penertration yet I also got 4feet that gave ok results but not outstanding
I have documentation on that also

Trust is a big word & covers a lot of bases yes work that out for oneself & guys like RH shouldn't be put into a situation that the pill will let them down as enough going on in the world of variables you don't need pill failure on top of it
Jm2cw



Now to the op so a big exit wound was observed so pill worked right or whatever was put out

Yes don't be quick to jump to conclusions
Maybe it worked
Maybe it penciled for first lobe or 2

Yes a lot can happen in the terminal world & repartition is key & a level one likes or accepts is also important
So until the
transition zone is worked out &or
did pop occur&
Where it all occurred ( pop is kinda a energy transfer but another day or detonation point is one that McGuire uses which I'm warming to that as being the same or close to pop but let's not get derailed to much lol )
It's hard to classify a pill did this or that unless measurements are taken let alone looked into but by understanding parts above you'll understand that different levels occur & why so choose wisely & trust is a big part of my world

Cheers

Thanks Fordy. As always, excellent, objective, supported observations. I appreciate that you continue to remain objective, not always easy.

 

[marksman1941]

Thanks Fordy. As always, excellent, objective, supported observations. I appreciate that you continue to remain objective, not always easy.

Fixed it for ya

 

[Quintus]

Fixed it for ya

Thanks brother, it was originally pretty offensive! Good catch!

 

[choprzrul]

Is the twist rate really what created the issue here? Is this bullet really that sensitive and dependent upon being just right on the twist rate? If true, could that not be viewed as a negative of this bullet design?

What if he tells you it's a 1:7 twist? Where do you go then?

Just my initial thoughts to your post.

I have no idea what caused the issue and I'm certainly not on a trip with any specific destination I need to arrive at. Simply trying to ascertain what might be the cause....but yes, Hammer states the minimum twist rate for each projectile for terminal performance.....and that's why I'm inquiring.

 

[Zen Archery]

I mean if you wanna DRT a deer.

 

[Barbourcreek]

Do you confirm all of your bullet performance with this level of detail?

He does