Hammer bullet for short range bear hunting

[Bang4theBuck]

Who are you hunting with?

Sask Can Outfitters Vern and Norma

 

[Bang4theBuck]

THIS IS THE ORIGINAL POSTER.....MAY I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE!!.

I have a new development. The 308 that I was going to take with me on this hunt has an issue with primary extraction amd bolt timing. I'm sending it in to be fixed. Just in case it doesn't get back in time (excuse #1) and because a 9 month backorder got filled (excuse #2) I picked up a Savage Impulse in 300 WSM for this trip. This rifle has a 1/10 twist, like the 308. Does this change anything in anyone's opinion of which HAMMER bullet I should or can use on this hunt?

If I didn't mention this before, I do like an exit wound on bears. So great performance (big wound channel) and and exit wound would be optimal.

 

[trailerdon]

Haha, I stayed away from this thread because I knew there would be a heated conversation before it was all over.
To answer your question; I would contact Hammer, They are always happy to help and will give bullet recommendations as well as load data.
Good luck on your hunt, Post up some photo's upon your return.

 

[Calvin45]

First of all, are you using the term "newfangle" in an insulting and demeaning way, because it sure appears so, and who's bullets are you referring to anyway? I want to dispel some myths here. No one helped us get started. In fact we have met with resistance and skepticism from the beginning by everybody. We have it from a very reliable source that CEB Lasers are poor long range hunting bullets as evidenced by the the fact that he shot an Audad with a .375 400 gr Laser at 965 yds 6 TIMES through the shoulder before the animal went down, but still had to kill it with a pistol. The animal had a nice 6 shot sub MOA group in his shoulder. None, and I mean 0, of these bullets expanded, but simply passed through. Now we have guys kill bigger animals at similar ranges with our bullets that weigh less than half as much with ONE shot. I want to maintain his privacy, but believe me he is well known, and a phenomenal long range shooter. I don't know much about GS Customs, but they were already out of the scene by the time we got going. I will leave it at that. Our hunting bullets are very different from everybody else's, and are designed to overcome the deficiencies of all our competitors. From competitors advertising and from actual shooting of their bullets we can spot where improvements can be made and improve our bullets to overcome those deficiencies. We also price our bullets competitively, certainly below the ones you mentioned. Now if they give special deals that undercut us, more power to them, but we know how much it costs to make lathe turned copper bullets, so those deals are not sustainable.

I was addressing Hammer Bullets specifically. As was the OP on this thread. Stop banging your shin on a stool that's not in your way. If you read the post of mine that's apparently ruffled your feathers again, you'll plainly see that it's a reply to a post by @RockyMtnMT, not you. This entire thread has from the start not been about you or your bullets.

I do not use "newfangled" as in insult to you or hammer. At no point have I been attacking you or your product personally, not sure what you're so defensive about here in a thread that explicitly states "hammer" in the title.

 

[TK 1985]

I'm a bit curious about the people advocating light for caliber bullets in this thread for bear and how they are easy to kill. I will say that I haven't done any out west hunting but here in PA our black bear tend to be pretty hard to put down sometimes. They are hardy. I wouldn't be comfortable with less than 150 for standard bullets in the .308, though that opinion could change depending on bullet performance but I also don't think I would be comfortable with a bullet designed to expand rapidly or "petal" out.

 

[Calvin45]

@nralifer moreover i truly mean it when I say I have nothing against you or your company. If the opportunity presents I'll give some of your pills a try sometime to see for myself.

 

[antleredacres]

Sure looks like you cannot read....OP never mentioned any brand.....never mentioned any Hammers.....

I've tried Hammers and they work OK also Makers but there are two facts in them why I would never use them again....#1 there made of copper not brass like a Cutting Edge Bullet brass is harder and will bend less than copper in the same designed bullet..... #2 Hammers and Makers they retain all of the bullet when mushroomed ....a Cutting Edge Bullet will expand in the first 2" of penetration then the front of the bullet will brake a way and radiate out with the "blades" cutting and slicing the base will continue going straight....I've had more animals shot in the chest cavity DRT with Cutting Edge Bullets than any other brand of bullets.....been hunting for close to 60 years been guiding for over 45 years I've see it all....

Look at the title

 

[nralifer]

I'm a bit curious about the people advocating light for caliber bullets in this thread for bear and how they are easy to kill. I will say that I haven't done any out west hunting but here in PA our black bear tend to be pretty hard to put down sometimes. They are hardy. I wouldn't be comfortable with less than 150 for standard bullets in the .308, though that opinion could change depending on bullet performance but I also don't think I would be comfortable with a bullet designed to expand rapidly or "petal" out.

Well I did just that, one shot DRT, with a bullet that petals on a Bear that likely was larger than roams your neck of the woods. Like I said, my guide was skeptical but he saw it first hand. Got him as a full mount in my living room. Absolutely most beautiful pelt i have ever seen.

 

[thomasbangs]

A heavy for caliber bullet is not needed for black bear especially over bait. My son's and I have killed several over the years that were treed with a 30-30 and 150 gr. Sierra and 150 gr. Speer flatnose bullets, everyone was dead when it hit the ground with one shot. A properly placed 150 to 165 gr. bullet in a. 308 Winchester should do the job.

 

[Alibiiv]

I'm going to book a hunt to Saskatchewan for this summer and I intend to shoot a 308 win. The shots will be short distance, but I'm wanting really good bullet performance. Does anyone have any experience with any of the heavies in that class that will fly properly out of a 1:10 twist barrel?
I'm thinking one of those more blunt profiles would be perfectly suited for this but looking for someone with experience with them. Thanks

First I would like to apologize for your post getting sidetracked by people who want to argue BS about whose bullet is better than whose bullet. After about six or seven pages of the bickering, I stopped reading and decided to address your post.

I black bear hunt over bait in Maine, and have been doing this for around ten-years now. During these years I have hunted with outfitters who will have anywhere from six hunters to twenty hunters, so I've seen a number of bears hunted and shot, and heard a lot of "good" and "not so good" hunting stories. None of this makes me an expert on killing bears from close shots, but.....it does give me a lot of experience of hunting them. Between my son, another hunting buddy and myself we have taken 12 bears over the years. I hunt from a ground blind because my back is blown out, getting in and out of a tree stand would take a crane to get me in and out of one; and...I'm a dinosaur to boot!!! Ground blind shots where I hunt run from 30-50 yards, I prefer some distance from the baits because of the keen smelling abilities and the keen hearing abilities of a black bear. So...30-50 yard shots is what my experience has been. I hunt black bear with 30-06, .358 Winchester, 35 Whelen and 45-70s. My first black bear went around 160 pounds, was shot with a 30-06, using a Barnes 180gr TSX bullet and shot from a Remington 700, 1:10 twist. That bear was quartering away from me, the bullet entered just in front of the left rear-quarter and exited just behind the front right shoulder. Was it the best shot that I have ever made on a bear, "absolutely not!!!" That bear ran about 60 yards straight away from where it was hit, then started back toward where it was shot and it died. But that 180gr Barnes went through 35-40 inches of bear, and exited the opposite side.

My experience has been that when a bear is hit you want a "through-and-through hole" and the bigger the better. A through-and-through hole makes tracking a bear a whole lot easier due to a larger blood trail. Yup you put a good shot on that bear, right where you know it is/was supposed to go and where you have been told to place that bullet, and...then when you recover from the recoil and expect a dead bear, that bear has disappeared!! Now the chase is on. Of all the bear that I have shot, only one dropped right where I shot it!! My last bear was hit with a 300gr Barnes TSX FB bullet out of a 45-70. The hollow point on these bullets looks like a Home Depot five-gallon bucket sitting on top of some brass. That one ran 30-40 yards into some thick woods that it took us over an hour to get to him; and...it took us a lot longer to drag him out due to where he died. There was a good blood trail due to the size of the through and through hole so he was easy to track in the dark. Where we hunt if you shoot a bear close to dark and have to leave it overnight because you cannot find it due to the lack of a blood trail, there's a very good possibility that half of that bear will be eaten by coyotes.

Now getting back to your question about bullet weight and bullets in general. One thing that I can answer for you is that "if" I were using a .308 Winchester I would be using a heavier bullet over the lighter bullet as some have suggested here. And despite what some replies have stated, black bears are "not" that easy to kill. Well let me rephrase that, they don't always remain where they have been shot and "will" die eventually. My experience has been that bait sights are cleared out areas that are set up close to very dense woods. With some bears, depending upon what the seasonal weather has been like, are stocking up on fat and carrying a lot of that around with them. From my perspective a bullet that is light, going at a high muzzle velocity and hitting that fat (I've seen up to 8 inches of it) that fat will absorb the energy from that bullet and you will not get the penetration for a through and through shot, or even get into the vitals with that light bullet. I recommend using a Barnes, 180gr TSX bullet in your .308 Winchester and would not recommend anything lighter than the 180gr bullets, and this recommendation is "only" based upon my experience with the Barnes bullets , how they perform, and this is based upon what I have written and described here. For me personally if I were hunting black bear over bait, at close quarters and I was hunting with a .308 Winchester with 180gr Barnes TSX bullets, I would be hunting with the confidence and the knowledge that I was hunting with a rifle/bullet combination to get the job done properly. The first photo is one showing the fat from a 235 pound sow that I shot with a 35 Whelen and also the bear that dropped where it was shot. The second photo is of the first bear that I shot using a 30-06 and a Barnes 180 grain TSX bullet showing the exit hole. I don't have a photo of the opposite side of this bear showing the entry hole, however it was as large as the exit hole. Have a successful hunt, shoot straight and bring back some photos of your hunt in Canada. Oh....and if you'd like to bring along a "long winded ole guy", I could be available.

 

[Petey308]

A heavy for caliber bullet is not needed for black bear especially over bait. My son's and I have killed several over the years that were treed with a 30-30 and 150 gr. Sierra and 150 gr. Speer flatnose bullets, everyone was dead when it hit the ground with one shot. A properly placed 150 to 165 gr. bullet in a. 308 Winchester should do the job.

Just for the sake of it, I wanted to point out that the example cartridges you gave produce pretty mild velocities and that will definitely help balance penetration vs expansion with those type of bullet.

If you were to step up to bigger magnum cartridges with the same type and weight bullet, and especially with closer range shots, you can run into issues. You'd then want more bullet mass (heavier fur caliber) to get that same balance.

So it also depends on the cartridge, or more specifically the impact velocity. It also depends on the bullet and how it's constructed. Many monos, for example, work best being lighter for caliber.

 

[Bang4theBuck]

First I would like to apologize for your post getting sidetracked by people who want to argue BS about whose bullet is better than whose bullet. After about six or seven pages of the bickering, I stopped reading and decided to address your post.

I black bear hunt over bait in Maine, and have been doing this for around ten-years now. During these years I have hunted with outfitters who will have anywhere from six hunters to twenty hunters, so I've seen a number of bears hunted and shot, and heard a lot of "good" and "not so good" hunting stories. None of this makes me an expert on killing bears from close shots, but.....it does give me a lot of experience of hunting them. Between my son, another hunting buddy and myself we have taken 12 bears over the years. I hunt from a ground blind because my back is blown out, getting in and out of a tree stand would take a crane to get me in and out of one; and...I'm a dinosaur to boot!!! Ground blind shots where I hunt run from 30-50 yards, I prefer some distance from the baits because of the keen smelling abilities and the keen hearing abilities of a black bear. So...30-50 yard shots is what my experience has been. I hunt black bear with 30-06, .358 Winchester, 35 Whelen and 45-70s. My first black bear went around 160 pounds, was shot with a 30-06, using a Barnes 180gr TSX bullet and shot from a Remington 700, 1:10 twist. That bear was quartering away from me, the bullet entered just in front of the left rear-quarter and exited just behind the front right shoulder. Was it the best shot that I have ever made on a bear, "absolutely not!!!" That bear ran about 60 yards straight away from where it was hit, then started back toward where it was shot and it died. But that 180gr Barnes went through 35-40 inches of bear, and exited the opposite side.

My experience has been that when a bear is hit you want a "through-and-through hole" and the bigger the better. A through-and-through hole makes tracking a bear a whole lot easier due to a larger blood trail. Yup you put a good shot on that bear, right where you know it is/was supposed to go and where you have been told to place that bullet, and...then when you recover from the recoil and expect a dead bear, that bear has disappeared!! Now the chase is on. Of all the bear that I have shot, only one dropped right where I shot it!! My last bear was hit with a 300gr Barnes TSX FB bullet out of a 45-70. The hollow point on these bullets looks like a Home Depot five-gallon bucket sitting on top of some brass. That one ran 30-40 yards into some thick woods that it took us over an hour to get to him; and...it took us a lot longer to drag him out due to where he died. There was a good blood trail due to the size of the through and through hole so he was easy to track in the dark. Where we hunt if you shoot a bear close to dark and have to leave it overnight because you cannot find it due to the lack of a blood trail, there's a very good possibility that half of that bear will be eaten by coyotes.

Now getting back to your question about bullet weight and bullets in general. One thing that I can answer for you is that "if" I were using a .308 Winchester I would be using a heavier bullet over the lighter bullet as some have suggested here. And despite what some replies have stated, black bears are "not" that easy to kill. Well let me rephrase that, they don't always remain where they have been shot and "will" die eventually. My experience has been that bait sights are cleared out areas that are set up close to very dense woods. With some bears, depending upon what the seasonal weather has been like, are stocking up on fat and carrying a lot of that around with them. From my perspective a bullet that is light, going at a high muzzle velocity and hitting that fat (I've seen up to 8 inches of it) that fat will absorb the energy from that bullet and you will not get the penetration for a through and through shot, or even get into the vitals with that light bullet. I recommend using a Barnes, 180gr TSX bullet in your .308 Winchester and would not recommend anything lighter than the 180gr bullets, and this recommendation is "only" based upon my experience with the Barnes bullets , how they perform, and this is based upon what I have written and described here. For me personally if I were hunting black bear over bait, at close quarters and I was hunting with a .308 Winchester with 180gr Barnes TSX bullets, I would be hunting with the confidence and the knowledge that I was hunting with a rifle/bullet combination to get the job done properly. The first photo is one showing the fat from a 235 pound sow that I shot with a 35 Whelen, the second photo is of the first bear that I shot using a 30-06 and a Barnes 180 grain TSX bullet showing the exit hole. I don't have a photo of the opposite side of this bear showing the entry hole, however it was as large as the exit hole. Have a successful hunt, shoot straight and bring back some photos of your hunt in Canada. Oh....and if you'd like to bring along a "long winded ole guy", I could be available.

Thanks for taking the time to provide that feedback. You may not have seen that I was forced to switch to a 300 WSM, due to some unforeseen circumstances on my semi-custom 308 WIN. None the less, the advice on bullet weight is valuable. I am still mulling over all of the choices, and availability thereof. I'll let everyone know what I settle on.

For what it is worth, the Hammers (or possibly any mono) seem like they could be the best of both worlds. There is some degree of energy dump, petals that shed, and create secondary wound channels, and a slug remaining that penetrates deeply, and in my case hopefully creates an exit wound, for reasons stated above.

 

[Alibiiv]

Thanks for taking the time to provide that feedback. You may not have seen that I was forced to switch to a 300 WSM, due to some unforeseen circumstances on my semi-custom 308 WIN. None the less, the advice on bullet weight is valuable. I am still mulling over all of the choices, and availability thereof. I'll let everyone know what I settle on.

For what it is worth, the Hammers (or possibly any mono) seem like they could be the best of both worlds. There is some degree of energy dump, petals that shed, and create secondary wound channels, and a slug remaining that penetrates deeply, and in my case hopefully creates an exit wound, for reasons stated above.

First I stopped reading the BS so I did not read that you are going to be using a 300 WSM, it is a good cartridge and will certainly get the job done. If it were me I would still use the 180gr Barnes TSX bullet, there's plenty of muzzle velocity and certainly enough bullet weight to give you a through-and-through shot. One year I did see a bullet that was "recovered" from a 200 pound black bear that was shot from a 300 WSM. The shot was a quartering away shot, the bullet was a 165 grain "cup-and-core" bullet, that was reloaded for this hunter for this bear hunt. That bullet expanded perfectly, was picture perfect as far as expansion, however it entered just behind the left front quarter and stopped just past the lungs. That bear died, it had to be tracked, there was no blood trail and it was only by happenstance that one of the guides found the bear lying dead in some tall grass near where the bear was shot. I have never recovered a Barnes bullet from any bear that I have shot. I did take a bear one year where it turned and did a "moon walk" (slow motion) away from where he was shot and then fell, about ten yards from where he was hit. After falling that bear tried to get up, only to fall down again. At that time I "figured" that he was down for the count, but again he got up and again only to fall. After the third time of getting his back end off of the ground and then falling again I became concerned that he was going to get a second wind and run off into some horribly thick woods and brush that I'd dragged bear out of before. With these thoughts in mind I decided that I was going to spine this bear. I didn't want to shoot him again because he was facing away from him and I didn't want to put a bullet hole into the back end of that bear; however, chasing him into those woods was not an option for me. I put the shot between the two rear quarters about eight-inches above the tail and up high enough so the bullet would stay close to the spine. The bullet was a 300gr Barnes TSX FB bullet out of the 45-70. It traveled the entire length of that bear and exited the nose. When the guide got to the bear he was not happy with me because he thought that I took a head shot. I told him "no" that is the exit hole, "not" the entry hole. He again disagreed with me until I showed him the entry hole between the two rear quarters. That bear was in the 200+ pound weight, we never recovered that bullet either.

 

[nralifer]

A heavy for caliber bullet is not needed for black bear especially over bait. My son's and I have killed several over the years that were treed with a 30-30 and 150 gr. Sierra and 150 gr. Speer flatnose bullets, everyone was dead when it hit the ground with one shot. A properly placed 150 to 165 gr. bullet in a. 308 Winchester should do the job.

300 lb Black Bears don't need heavy for caliber bullets. I agree. It's just that the 150 BD2 and BD have such wide performance envelopes from the short 308Win you can use it for almost anything at a reasonable range.