Varmint Hunter
Well-Known Member
I've been putting oil IN my Hammers so that I won't miss the Hammer Trails. 
Hammer 22 Creedmoor Testing
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codyadams
Well-Known Member
Yes, the cutting oil is a pretty standard thing with all hammers. If I recall correctly, I believe at one point Steve said they had attempted removing it prior to packaging, but after they did their own testing, they concluded the oil had no significant impact upon terminal performance or accuracy.
However, their benchmark for impact on accuracy likely was not consistent .2's or less, and actual consistent .2's or less like you are looking for. As in, 10 shots in .2's or less. Many people will say a 3 shot group under ideal conditions, with an occasional group that is up to .5", means they have a .2" rifle/load combo, but consistency of repition makes a big difference and is very challenging to achieve with standard reloading equipment and firearms.
And for the vast majority of people, admittedly myself included, a CONSISTENT .5 MOA rifle is very acceptable, so your benchmark is simply more than what is asked by the majority. So therefore, the possibility of the existence of cutting oil in bullets causing some fliers and opening groups up to half-ish MOA is hardly noticeable to the majority, as that is still withing their level of acceptance. Just like most people won't worry about doing a primer seating depth test, many people aren't very concerned with action/trigger timing of an action as long as it functions reliably, things like this. However, when chasing extreme accuracy and consistency as you are, every aspect comes into play and must be addressed properly and specifically. So, at that level, the oil may very well be the culprit.
However, their benchmark for impact on accuracy likely was not consistent .2's or less, and actual consistent .2's or less like you are looking for. As in, 10 shots in .2's or less. Many people will say a 3 shot group under ideal conditions, with an occasional group that is up to .5", means they have a .2" rifle/load combo, but consistency of repition makes a big difference and is very challenging to achieve with standard reloading equipment and firearms.
And for the vast majority of people, admittedly myself included, a CONSISTENT .5 MOA rifle is very acceptable, so your benchmark is simply more than what is asked by the majority. So therefore, the possibility of the existence of cutting oil in bullets causing some fliers and opening groups up to half-ish MOA is hardly noticeable to the majority, as that is still withing their level of acceptance. Just like most people won't worry about doing a primer seating depth test, many people aren't very concerned with action/trigger timing of an action as long as it functions reliably, things like this. However, when chasing extreme accuracy and consistency as you are, every aspect comes into play and must be addressed properly and specifically. So, at that level, the oil may very well be the culprit.
I did this with my bullets after washing them with dish soap to remove any residue prior to HBN coating them, it worked very well, however was a one by one process. Orkan may have some contraption that does it more efficiently? I don't know ha ha.
Well stated.
It's also worth noting, hornady ships a little cloth baggie with their A-tips... specifically to remove manufacturing lubrication, because they have noticed it, as have others, that this non-uniform presentation of lubrication does indeed alter the performance of the bullets.
I have tested this with the A-tips, and can indeed confirm that "degreased" A-tips, shoot better than straight from the box A-tips.
I have not had any experience with Berger bullets, nor sierra, which have a film or anything on them. They are squeaky clean. I'm wondering if they get a wash of some type before they hit the box.
Suffice it to say this is not an undocumented phenomena. So I think you may be correct, in that the average Hammer user is much less demanding than I. We are also in agreement than demonstrating consistent performance in the .2's is not trivial, and this thread is likely to serve as real evidence that far fewer people achieve that, than claim to have achieved it.
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15mph 6:00 wind today... so not much to be learned. I was chasing a tenth mil of zero the entire time. lol
As soon as I run out of bullets, the wind drops to 5mph, but its suppose to climb to 103f today, so I think I'll call it quits.
Top left 3 dots were from yesterday... the rest are today.
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As soon as I run out of bullets, the wind drops to 5mph, but its suppose to climb to 103f today, so I think I'll call it quits.
Top left 3 dots were from yesterday... the rest are today.
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Were those all the same charge and seating depth or all different?
All the same. As I mentioned, two separate times I put 1 click of elevation and wind into the scope... just couldn't get things to land right with this crazy wind.
Gstew1930
Well-Known Member
Loving your pursuit. What's the game plan with this build? Coyotes or deer & antelope?All the same. As I mentioned, two separate times I put 1 click of elevation and wind into the scope... just couldn't get things to land right with this crazy wind.
The main goal with this one was to evaluate Hammer bullets and shoot prairie dogs. I can do the first one while doing the second one, so it works out well!
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Oh, I should also note, I will be shooting at least 1 deer if not more with this setup this fall.
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RockyMtnMT
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Over the years we have done different things to try and deal with oil in the hp. As @orkan noted, it is not an issue for the vast majority of shooters that are looking for .5 moa. So far any method of completely removing the oil from the small Hammer Hunter hp is more labor intensive than it is worth, on the production level. We currently use an ultrasonic cleaning method, but it does not remove oil from the small blind hole completely. We have recently made a purchase agreement for a rather expensive washing system that will eliminate oil from the bullets entirely. We should see it around the 1st of the year. In the end it will cost less than manual labor to do the process.
I still shoot my bullets with oil in the hp. I am also happy with .5 moa at distance.
I still shoot my bullets with oil in the hp. I am also happy with .5 moa at distance.
Started back in on the Hammer 22 Creed project today. I was continuing with H4350 at around 3600fps with the 70gr Hammer Hunters... but it was just fighting me. Solid 1/3 MOA... but I felt like I was just chasing it around a bit. So, in keeping with some advice I've offered on another thread... I decided to grab a faster powder, which seems to make these Hammers work better in everything. I grabbed some Varget, and dumped 40.5gr with the best seating depth I've found with H4350. Generally, I'd never recommend varget with a normal 70gr bullet in a 22 creed... but these Hammers aren't normal.
YIKES! That's fast. I mean, the alpha OCD can take it, and no heavy bolt lift... but whoa.
The wind was doing dumb swirly things today, so I didn't bother with trying to fine tune accuracy. I just shot the condition and held straight on the dot, and put 3 down range as fast as I could. These are all 3 shot groups at 100yds. Two bullets essentially going through the exact same hole, then one landing a bullet away, over and over again.
Obviously I will be doing some proper dev with this combo, as it is clearly better than what I was seeing with the H4350.
I legitimately had to pull out some magnification to see if there were actually 3 bullet holes there. But, I was able to confirm it... just a little more paper torn out here, or a little oblong hole there. A couple of them, I just couldn't see how 3 bullets went in there. I didn't see them anywhere else... so anyway. lol
Something tells me it will be a little happier down closer to 3625 or so. I was hoping to use H4350 with this test, as that's the primary powder I run in all my other 22 creeds... but if I can get varget performing like this on the regular, I'll anchor in there for the life of this barrel.
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YIKES! That's fast. I mean, the alpha OCD can take it, and no heavy bolt lift... but whoa.
The wind was doing dumb swirly things today, so I didn't bother with trying to fine tune accuracy. I just shot the condition and held straight on the dot, and put 3 down range as fast as I could. These are all 3 shot groups at 100yds. Two bullets essentially going through the exact same hole, then one landing a bullet away, over and over again.
Obviously I will be doing some proper dev with this combo, as it is clearly better than what I was seeing with the H4350.
I legitimately had to pull out some magnification to see if there were actually 3 bullet holes there. But, I was able to confirm it... just a little more paper torn out here, or a little oblong hole there. A couple of them, I just couldn't see how 3 bullets went in there. I didn't see them anywhere else... so anyway. lol
Something tells me it will be a little happier down closer to 3625 or so. I was hoping to use H4350 with this test, as that's the primary powder I run in all my other 22 creeds... but if I can get varget performing like this on the regular, I'll anchor in there for the life of this barrel.
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Ok, it's been a long while since I've had to work this hard at something. I'm either going to have to throw in the towel, or I'm going to have to start trying some drastic deviations from the norm. I have a few more wild ideas I'm going to try next session... as I'm not quite ready to give up yet.
Here's the last 112rnds of trying to get load work done on the 70gr HH's.
The bottom row on the top target is basically as consistent as I've been able to get with them so far. About the time I think I've locked into something good, it turns out to not be repeatable. POI stays fairly constant, but all attempts to get smaller performance have been thwarted. It remains very easy to get 1/2 to 5/8 MOA... but seemingly impossible to get better than that. That pair of targets represents 2 separate powders, over 5 grains of charge weight, and 125 thousandths of seating depth variation on both powders. Varget didn't work. H1000 didn't work. H4350 didn't work. RL26 didn't work. VV540 didn't work. VV560 didn't work. RL22 didn't work. Crimping didn't matter. They don't care about velocity or jump. Both the 52HH's and 70HH's behaved the same way.
There's so many unknowns. Do Hammers just hate my chamber? Do they hate Benchmark barrels? Do they require a special twist or land/groove configuration? Is there something inherent in the bullets designs that are causing this?
Keep in mind, Hammer isn't going around claiming sub 1/2 MOA. (at least not that I've seen)
Today, as a control... I went back to my trusty 80gr bergers and did a typical load dev session with them. The bottom part of the target is zeroing, and a quick confirmation of my two pet charge weights of H1000. Then a quick glance at seating depth options on the top row, I selected where I thought I should be... and fired two confirmation groups. Suffice it to say, this is just what I've come to expect from my 22 creeds. Sub-1/4 MOA is the norm with rifles configured my way with my reamers.
Frankly, I think I could have tightened it up even more with H4350.
I've got some powders which are completely outside the norm for the 22 creed. I'm going to move into them next and see what happens. I have exactly 517 rounds on this barrel now... and I can't help feeling that I've accomplished nothing. I know that isn't true, as I've been able to gather some great experience, but I stopped being excited about 1/2 MOA nearly 15 years ago. I have plenty of positive things to say about this experience and Hammer bullets, with the only real negative thus far being my seeming inability to make them shoot to my standard. I'm going to keep my spirits up, in hope that my unorthodox plan for the next session produces fruit.
There's something I'm missing here. All will benefit if I can figure out what it is. Frankly, this has all been kind of fun. It's been a long time since something has fought me like this.
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Here's the last 112rnds of trying to get load work done on the 70gr HH's.
The bottom row on the top target is basically as consistent as I've been able to get with them so far. About the time I think I've locked into something good, it turns out to not be repeatable. POI stays fairly constant, but all attempts to get smaller performance have been thwarted. It remains very easy to get 1/2 to 5/8 MOA... but seemingly impossible to get better than that. That pair of targets represents 2 separate powders, over 5 grains of charge weight, and 125 thousandths of seating depth variation on both powders. Varget didn't work. H1000 didn't work. H4350 didn't work. RL26 didn't work. VV540 didn't work. VV560 didn't work. RL22 didn't work. Crimping didn't matter. They don't care about velocity or jump. Both the 52HH's and 70HH's behaved the same way.
There's so many unknowns. Do Hammers just hate my chamber? Do they hate Benchmark barrels? Do they require a special twist or land/groove configuration? Is there something inherent in the bullets designs that are causing this?
Keep in mind, Hammer isn't going around claiming sub 1/2 MOA. (at least not that I've seen)
Today, as a control... I went back to my trusty 80gr bergers and did a typical load dev session with them. The bottom part of the target is zeroing, and a quick confirmation of my two pet charge weights of H1000. Then a quick glance at seating depth options on the top row, I selected where I thought I should be... and fired two confirmation groups. Suffice it to say, this is just what I've come to expect from my 22 creeds. Sub-1/4 MOA is the norm with rifles configured my way with my reamers.
Frankly, I think I could have tightened it up even more with H4350.
I've got some powders which are completely outside the norm for the 22 creed. I'm going to move into them next and see what happens. I have exactly 517 rounds on this barrel now... and I can't help feeling that I've accomplished nothing. I know that isn't true, as I've been able to gather some great experience, but I stopped being excited about 1/2 MOA nearly 15 years ago. I have plenty of positive things to say about this experience and Hammer bullets, with the only real negative thus far being my seeming inability to make them shoot to my standard. I'm going to keep my spirits up, in hope that my unorthodox plan for the next session produces fruit.
There's something I'm missing here. All will benefit if I can figure out what it is. Frankly, this has all been kind of fun. It's been a long time since something has fought me like this.
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