I'm sorry. I didn't realize the recoil lug was pre-installed in the stock. I was thinking you could just move it back a bit. Forget what I said about that aspect. The rest still applies.
Fluted Barrel full length bedding
- Thread starter Tac-O
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I'm sorry. I didn't realize the recoil lug was pre-installed in the stock. I was thinking you could just move it back a bit. Forget what I said about that aspect. The rest still applies.
Boyd's sent me a return label said they'd build a new one for me, so that's good. I'm not sure if I should send it back or just drill out the pillars and put new ones in correctly. I've read of people having to send a stock back several times before it's correct.
I've also been thinking about this issue. Yes I want to bed my action into this stock stress-free with pillars, then I need to make sure my action will sit evenly on both pillars as well as the recoil lug before bedding, since I can't remove the recoil lug. A lot of people will relieve the recoil lug recess and use a small amount of superglue on The recoil lug to attach it to the action before bedding it, so that the recoil lug just floats in the bedding compound as it cures. That way, all the action is resting on is the pillars and it is done completely stress-free. Since I can't do that with this stock, it would either be a lot of work to get the pillars the exact right length so that the action sit evenly on both pillars and The recoil lug or I would just need to drill out the existing pillars, bed the stock stress free without the pillars using the recoil lug and the rear Tang as the height reference points, and then I can go back later and install here pillars flush with the bedding and do a skim coat to ensure flush bedding.
Thoughts?
On a side note, I just got a few of my small parts back that I had cerakoted to match the stainless. Bolt shroud, magazine, safety, cocking indicator, boot stop, and atlasworxs bottom metal that reshaped to be a bit more ergonomic and aesthetically pleasing.
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Everyone might have different opinions on this one. Personally, I don't think it matters if the action actually sits on the pillars themselves. I do try to make this happen because I like the way it looks with nice shiny pillars showing in the bedding, but I don't think it's required. I like to use Devcon Steel Epoxy. When it is done right and fills the the relatively small gap between an existing pillar and an action, it is probably just as stiff as a full aluminium pillar might be. Certainly the difference if any is very very small just because of the length ratio between the pillar and the epoxy layer.
If I were doing this stock for you, I would argue that you should let me put all my focus on getting good square recoil lug contact and let the bedding look after everything else.
Let me only add that for most rifles with a lug located between the barrel and action, the bedding also looks after the recoil lug fit too. In that case, you just aim for a totally stress free bedding job and let the epoxy look after all the fit issues.
Perhaps the same principals could look after your lug too. But I am not familiar with how that design works and can't really provide meaningful advice on how to do it. Just suffice to say that the lug needs good solid square contact so nothing moves around or absorbs the recoil stress unevenly.
Just a few other thoughts. Again, please temper my opinion recognizing that I have not seen how your system works and am making some assumptions about it that may not be correct.......
Although others may have used crazy glue to temporarily hold the lug to the action, I am not thrilled with the idea. Crazy glue shatters when broken free and may leave a few thousandth clearance after the fact that causes stress. I'd rather put a good release agent onto the lug and action and then Epoxy the lug to the action temporarily along the front (muzzle) side of the lug. After that sub assembly has cured, I'd rough up the epoxy and then bed the epoxy lug and action all at once. You won't need a lot of temporary epoxy to do this. You are just "pinching" the lug into a nice square position before final bedding into the stock.
Again, I would not worry too much about the pillars. The final bedding (if done right) will make sure the pillars have a stress free fit to the action.
I think we might be talking about the same, or very similar procedure, except you're using epoxy. I I'd like to do that if I could the lug out!
I'm not sure we are, but I am sure we are aiming for the same result. My suggestion creates a wedge of epoxy at the muzzle side of the lug to hold the lug in place. Crazy glue won't form a wedge - it is a crevice glue that has to penetrate the gap/interface between the receiver and lug. I am not advocating anything at all between the lug and receiver. Try to imagine the Epoxy in my scenario looking a lot like a weld bead along the front edge that does not seep into the gap.
The difference is probably only a thousandth or so but a thousandth is actually a lot in this case. I aim for less than a thousandth measured at the forend tip where the distance to the forend tip from the bedding at the receiver magnifies the movement at the receiver many times over.
If Boyd epoxied the lug in, you should be able to remove it by heating the lug up with a soldering gun or a tiny torch. Most epoxies will soften when heated. After the lug comes out, you can remove the rest of the epoxy with a mill or dremel. It all has to come out after softening this way. This will not damage the lug or the wood.
I decided to keep the stock and just drill out the pillars since they're aluminum.
I understand now. So you're talking about having metal to metal contact between the lug and action on the top of the lug and the bolt side of the lug. I have two questions then:
1 - Don't we want the lug and action to have metal to metal contact on the muzzle side of the gun, since that side gets the recoil force? Or are you preferring to use the epoxy "wedge" as the recoil force surface since with would be perfectly square with the action?
2 - When bedding the lug/epoxy wedge/action into the stock, I think your method has the roughed up epoxy wedge coming off the action and bonding to the epoxy bedding in the stock, correct? And that is why the epoxy wedge is temporarily on the action/lug?
Trying to remove the lug from the stock makes me nervous! What about just leaving the lug in place and bedding right over the top of it?
I understand now. So you're talking about having metal to metal contact between the lug and action on the top of the lug and the bolt side of the lug. I have two questions then:
1 - Don't we want the lug and action to have metal to metal contact on the muzzle side of the gun, since that side gets the recoil force? Or are you preferring to use the epoxy "wedge" as the recoil force surface since with would be perfectly square with the action?
2 - When bedding the lug/epoxy wedge/action into the stock, I think your method has the roughed up epoxy wedge coming off the action and bonding to the epoxy bedding in the stock, correct? And that is why the epoxy wedge is temporarily on the action/lug?
Trying to remove the lug from the stock makes me nervous! What about just leaving the lug in place and bedding right over the top of it?
I can hardly believe I made that mistake so many times...... I think I am just programmed to think of lugs that are part of the action whether integral or between the barrel and action. Yours is different of course and I am totally thrilled (despite the embarrassment) that you caught it. It also gives me great hope that you will end up with a terrific result. You are thinking and your thoughts are the product of a sharp mind.
1. Yes, the wedge or bead or whatever you want to call it should go on the backside, not the front, of the temporary action & lug assembly!
2. Yes, my suggestion has the wedge separating from the action and staying in the bedding after the final bedding job. The reason for using a release agent and roughing it up is to ensure that this happens. Your call as to whether you want the lug itself to be removable afterward.
3. I understand your nervousness. I can only tell you that I don't like the idea of double bedding for something as critical as a recoil lug. My guts tell me that the lug and action contact should be perfect metal to metal contact and should not be squared using what will end up being a very thin coat of epoxy that could crack and flake off. If it were up to me, it would come out and be bedded back in properly with the objective of try to achieve full square metal to metal contact between the lug and action.
4. I see no downside to drilling out the pillars and putting new ones in. That will allow you to use thicker pillars with outside contours that will adher to and hold the epoxy better. Don't forget to remove the old epoxy too. It will likely be damaged in the process and could also change chemically due to the heat generated by drilling the aluminium pillars out.
Let me just state one more time that I have never bedded an action like yours. I am only offering the opinion, not first hand experience, of an engineer and precision smith. When the dust settles, you are the one who needs to make the call and be comfy with what you are doing. That said, I am quite willing (and happy) to provide a decent sounding venue for you to debate and explore your options. I particularly enjoy doing so with someone with an independent sharp mind.
Do me a favor and take a nice photo of the bottom of your action so I have a better idea of what you are dealing with.
Here it is.
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I heated up the recoil lug with a soldering iron until it was searing hot, and it still did not budge. I only ended up marring the surface of the lug with my pliers from gripping it so tightly while trying to pull it :/
I certainly agree it wouldn't be ideal to just bed over the top of the lug and it would likely chip over time with the high recoil of the .30-06 on that small surface area. Considering that and now the fact that the lug surface is a bit marred up and likely not mating smoothly with the action slot, I'm going to have to get it out of the stock.
I think the easiest way for me to remove it with the tools I have would be to use a tiny drill bit ( I think I have a 1/16" bit" and drill a series of holes all along the front, back, and sides of the lug to essentially mill out the glue and wood around it, which would then hopefully allow me to break the bonds by wiggling it and then pull it. It's a decent option since I would have to relieve the lug slot in the stock when bedding with the lug attached to the action. I'll attempt to get this done tonight and post a couple of pictures.
I successfully drilled out the old pillars and made the holes slightly larger than 3/8". The pillars were 3/8" aluminum. I was able to remove a little more wood in the holes on the muzzle side, allowing me to slide in the steel pillars I have and attach the action screws without any contact between the steel pillars and the action screws. I'll post pictures of this as well.
That's amazing. Either they used a high temperature epoxy or they used something else......
If I were doing it, I'd probably use a small milling bit. But you use what you have and a small drill bit used as you describe should work. If you lean the drill slowly back toward the previous hole being careful not to snap it off, you can probably accomplish something similar to using a mill with the advantage of less material removed. Watch for Wood coming out of the drill hole to establish the correct depth.
You should polish the lug to remove your plier marks.
Only 3/8" eh? If the screws are 1/4-28, that means the walls of the pillars are less than a 16" thick. Doesn't sound right to me..... In any case, I'd go for thicker walled pillars. As you noted, you need clearance around the screws. Screws that touch the inside of the pillars (or stock holes) are a cause for flyers.
Are you having fun yet?
Definitely having fun! It's a nice alternative to going to the range once a week, especially since the range is closed down.
I successfully removed the lug and widened the slot. Man, that was in there TIGHT!!! I started with my drill and a 1/16 bit, and of course I snapped two of them in there even being as absolutely careful as I could. So then I decided to use my cheapo Dremel because I remembered that it has a mill style bit. I used that to finish creating a gap on both sides of the lug, then I stood the stock on it's but and used a hammer and punch to knock the lug loose. But even then, it took wiggling and wiggling and wiggling and wiggling and hammering and pulling and pulling to get it out. After some blood and a few dings on the top edge of the stock it finally came out. Then I used another cylindrical mill style bit to clean up the lug slot and deepen it by a couple of millimeters. The old lug is done for, but luckily I have an extra lug that is pristine.
Now I'll be able to fix the lug to the action, fill the slot with compound, and when I sit the action down the lug will push the excess compound out and create that stress free perfectly square recoil surface!
You can also see the new pillars slipped in. They're not epoxied in though, just sitting in there for now. They're the Lumley arms steel pillars that are machined to correct length that I bought a bit ago. The wall isn't real thick, but they should be plenty strong and will give the action screw plenty of room.
