Fireforming and resizing

[AZShooter]

Your last post has me thinking you should read Virgil's story in what is called the Secrets of the Houston Warehouse. He goes to the Nth degree with his loading. While it is not for everyone is shows just how far you can go to try and achieve perfection.

Within the story Virgil prepped his brass to fit the chamber with total clearance of about .0007" between loaded round and chamber. The springback is just enough so he didn't have to size the brass at all. The process requires you use a custom reamer with a smaller neck, then trim the necks to get the clearance you require. I did it with a 30 BR and it was an interesting exercise. Oh eventually you may need to bump the body a tiny bit to ease bolt closure but it is a totally different way to load. Naturally this is for bench rest only shooting as the neck tension is minimal.

He also had bullet seating observations: "Virgil said his practice was to seat the bullets so the engraving was half as long as the width of the lands. He noticed an interesting phenomenon with rifles that could really shoot: if the bullets were seated a little short and the powder charge was a bit on the light side, the groups formed vertically. As he seated the bullets farther out and increased the powder charge, the groups finally became horizontal. If he went still farther, the groups formed big globs. He said the trick is to find the midway point between vertical and horizontal. That point should be a small hole."

This is free recoil shooting with as many things done to the rifle and the shooting platform. Seeing it is your hobby you might want to go deeply into these things and see what appeals and just how accurate your shooting can get.




Link:

https://precisionrifle.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/secrets-of-the-houston-warehouse-by-dave-scott-precision-shooting-magazine-special-edition-1-1993.pdf

 

[bamban]

Your last post has me thinking you should read Virgil's story in what is called the Secrets of the Houston Warehouse. He goes to the Nth degree with his loading. While it is not for everyone is shows just how far you can go to try and achieve perfection.

Within the story Virgil prepped his brass to fit the chamber with total clearance of about .0007" between loaded round and chamber. The springback is just enough so he didn't have to size the brass at all. The process requires you use a custom reamer with a smaller neck, then trim the necks to get the clearance you require. I did it with a 30 BR and it was an interesting exercise. Oh eventually you may need to bump the body a tiny bit to ease bolt closure but it is a totally different way to load. Naturally this is for bench rest only shooting as the neck tension is minimal.

He also had bullet seating observations: "Virgil said his practice was to seat the bullets so the engraving was half as long as the width of the lands. He noticed an interesting phenomenon with rifles that could really shoot: if the bullets were seated a little short and the powder charge was a bit on the light side, the groups formed vertically. As he seated the bullets farther out and increased the powder charge, the groups finally became horizontal. If he went still farther, the groups formed big globs. He said the trick is to find the midway point between vertical and horizontal. That point should be a small hole."

This is free recoil shooting with as many things done to the rifle and the shooting platform. Seeing it is your hobby you might want to go deeply into these things and see what appeals and just how accurate your shooting can get.




Link:

https://precisionrifle.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/secrets-of-the-houston-warehouse-by-dave-scott-precision-shooting-magazine-special-edition-1-1993.pdf

Thank you for bringing this up. As the summary stated, the last word on zero grouping precision --- brass prep..

Virgil King, the human machine rest.

I was a young benchrest shooter hanging out at TJ Jackson's shop in Austin at night in those days. I watched TJ fireform (55 gallon drum in his garage) 220 Russian and turn necks in his lathe. He would make initial cut on the brass, then back to the barrel for the second fireforming. After the 2nd trip to the lathe, he would use 0000 steel wool fine tune the neck wall to where he would test seat his 68 grainers for just the "right feel."

The late Col. Jackson was one of the premier benchrest gunsmiths in that era.

 

[memtb]

It's the consistency that I am looking for. Therefore, I will continue to FL, Neck Size, Bump .002, and trim every time. No matter if the cases I am using are new or fireformed.

You "trim" after every firing? Wow!

I realize and readily admit that I'm not shooting the distances nor reaching for the accuracy that you folks are…….but, do you actually see a measurable case lengthening after 1 firing!

Again, I'm only a hunter and limit my ranges, under 600 yards in near perfect conditions……. what many of you would consider "short range"…. but can pretty easily get sub 2", 3 shot groups @ 300 yards from the bench with a 9# rifle.

Also, I'm using an AI version of my cartridge……and have heard that the AI's can have more firings before the neck jamming the end of the chamber, which may be garbage information! I've gone 10 firings, which is my case "throw away" point, without appreciable group size degradation!

I will make a confession though, supposedly "confessions are good for the soul", I'm getting ready to develop a new load (new bullet) for my hunt'n rifle and did actually trim the cases ……and these only had 3 firings on them. I figured that it couldn't hurt in load development!

I know that I'm neglectful, pretty ignorant, and perhaps a bit lazy…..but, even in match/competition rifles is there a measurable benefit in trimming after every firing! Not, trying to be an *** (it comes naturally), but genuinely curious! Educate me! Thanks! memtb

 

[cajun]

It's the consistency that I am looking for. Therefore, I will continue to FL, Neck Size, Bump .002, and trim every time. No matter if the cases I am using are new or fireformed.

So are you using a full length neck sizing die? Or are you using a body die and then a neck sizer? For a hunter I don't care for neck sizing. I want 100% my brass to chamber in any conditions. Full length resizing with a minimal shoulder bump. Trimming every time is really a waste of time but it's your time.

 

[C-130 Dude]

So are you using a full length neck sizing die? Or are you using a body die and then a neck sizer? For a hunter I don't care for neck sizing. I want 100% my brass to chamber in any conditions. Full length resizing with a minimal shoulder bump. Trimming every time is really a waste of time but it's your time.

I don't hunt anymore. My back won't take it. The die I am currently using is a RCBS Match Master. This one is a full length die that has a neck bushing capability built in. A couple of companies make them. Never had problems chambering cases at all. I always bump .002 and trim a/r.

 

[C-130 Dude]

You "trim" after every firing? Wow!

I realize and readily admit that I'm not shooting the distances nor reaching for the accuracy that you folks are…….but, do you actually see a measurable case lengthening after 1 firing!

Again, I'm only a hunter and limit my ranges, under 600 yards in near perfect conditions……. what many of you would consider "short range"…. but can pretty easily get sub 2", 3 shot groups @ 300 yards from the bench with a 9# rifle.

Also, I'm using an AI version of my cartridge……and have heard that the AI's can have more firings before the neck jamming the end of the chamber, which may be garbage information! I've gone 10 firings, which is my case "throw away" point, without appreciable group size degradation!

I will make a confession though, supposedly "confessions are good for the soul", I'm getting ready to develop a new load (new bullet) for my hunt'n rifle and did actually trim the cases ……and these only had 3 firings on them. I figured that it couldn't hurt in load development!

I know that I'm neglectful, pretty ignorant, and perhaps a bit lazy…..but, even in match/competition rifles is there a measurable benefit in trimming after every firing! Not, trying to be an *** (it comes naturally), but genuinely curious! Educate me! Thanks! memtb

This obsession is mine to bear. My quest is to always start at the same place. Thats my measuring point. I refuse to induce variability. So I do trim when I notice any growth. As you said, it's my time. Since I retired, it's all good. I can't educate you, I don't have enough data. I would gladly provide any I get.

 

[C-130 Dude]

Your last post has me thinking you should read Virgil's story in what is called the Secrets of the Houston Warehouse. He goes to the Nth degree with his loading. While it is not for everyone is shows just how far you can go to try and achieve perfection.

Within the story Virgil prepped his brass to fit the chamber with total clearance of about .0007" between loaded round and chamber. The springback is just enough so he didn't have to size the brass at all. The process requires you use a custom reamer with a smaller neck, then trim the necks to get the clearance you require. I did it with a 30 BR and it was an interesting exercise. Oh eventually you may need to bump the body a tiny bit to ease bolt closure but it is a totally different way to load. Naturally this is for bench rest only shooting as the neck tension is minimal.

He also had bullet seating observations: "Virgil said his practice was to seat the bullets so the engraving was half as long as the width of the lands. He noticed an interesting phenomenon with rifles that could really shoot: if the bullets were seated a little short and the powder charge was a bit on the light side, the groups formed vertically. As he seated the bullets farther out and increased the powder charge, the groups finally became horizontal. If he went still farther, the groups formed big globs. He said the trick is to find the midway point between vertical and horizontal. That point should be a small hole."

This is free recoil shooting with as many things done to the rifle and the shooting platform. Seeing it is your hobby you might want to go deeply into these things and see what appeals and just how accurate your shooting can get.




Link:

https://precisionrifle.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/secrets-of-the-houston-warehouse-by-dave-scott-precision-shooting-magazine-special-edition-1-1993.pdf

Interesting. My journey down the rabbit hole continues....

 

[C-130 Dude]

You don't take it back to Saami spec though. You only bump the shoulder .002, and your chamber, especially a factory chamber, may have blown the shoulder forward upwards of .009 possibly with the first firing. And the case body also grows, and the sizing die doesn't squeeze the case body back to the original dimensions either.

You had me thinking on just how far fwd the shot round sholders were, so I opened up a box of 100 rounds I just shot. I measured 25 of them and they came in at + .001. Considering I only bump .002, I think that's not going to stress my brass to bad. What do you think?

 

[C-130 Dude]

What Huntfnul & bang4the Buck said. It's not taking it back to SAAMI, but Bumping it .002 back will help getting the cartridge into the chamber when reloaded. You can just neck size, and you case will be fireformed to your chamber, but after a few reloads you might have a hard time chambering your reload. If you Full Size every time and bump back .002 your accuracy will stay the same. There has to be allowance for the Brass to SPRING Back.

You had me thinking on just how far fwd the shot round sholders were, so I opened up a box of 100 rounds I just shot. I measured 25 of them and they came in at + .001. Considering I only bump .002, I think that's not going to stress my brass to bad. What do you think?

 

[Huntnful]

You had me thinking on just how far fwd the shot round sholders were, so I opened up a box of 100 rounds I just shot. I measured 25 of them and they came in at + .001. Considering I only bump .002, I think that's not going to stress my brass to bad. What do you think?

Sound like you have a great chamber. You're good to go!

My dad's fierce grows .009-.01 on the first firing

 

[C-130 Dude]

Sound like you have a great chamber. You're good to go!

My dad's fierce grows .009-.01 on the first firing

You mean those cases stretch that much on every firing? Wouldn't take many shots to run out of brass to resize!

 

[Huntnful]

You mean those cases stretch that much on every firing? Wouldn't take many shots to run out of brass to resize!

No, just the first firing. But for a brand new case to stretch .009 in a SAAMI chamber is quite a bit on the initial firing.

 

[C-130 Dude]

No, just the first firing. But for a brand new case to stretch .009 in a SAAMI chamber is quite a bit on the initial firing.

Yeah, I would say so. I'm a bit shocked on that stat.

 

[DoneNOut]

I checked my rifles with a borescope and saw they all have about .030" from the case mouth to the chamber wall. I stopped trimming after that discovery. I will, more than likely, blow the primer pockets before they reach that growth.