Done with 215 Bergers

[david77]

Barrel twist is far more critical than muzzle velocity. A guy can run them at 2700fps out of a 9 twist and be just fine. Muzzle velocity only helps to a smaller degree

I believe we are in total agreement! In op's case, it is much easier to for him to increase velocity vs barrel twist!

 

[Double Dropper]

While all bullets can fail...or appear to fail, I too have tried the Berger experience. They did the job but the shrapnel mess and subsequent meat damage (waste) left me moving to other bullet choices.

 

[Tumbleweed]

I believe we are in total agreement! In op's case, it is much easier to for him to increase velocity vs barrel twist!

If MV will get him there, then great.

 

[RidgeReaper208]

220ELD-X are better

Both are excellent close range and long range...have killed with both at 50-700 yards, animals died where they stood when they were shot.
Have never been a Berger fan, my guns don't like them...therefore, I don't waste my time loading them for my guns

 

[freddiej]

I really do not have to put my 2 cents in, but I am going to anyway. hybrid/tactical/target slugs are not hunting slugs. I have seen people use Berger tactical/hybrid slugs for hunting with mixed, at best, results. I have warned them without knowing what the slugs were in their loads not to ever use target slugs for hunting. When they do it is oh so evident on the hunt. Deer, Elk, Moose and Bear all walk away and never really feel the slug because it does little to no real damage.
I have used Berger .270", .308" and .257" diameter slugs with excellent performance. I have always used the hunting slugs. I once, when I was shooting 1,000 yard comp, used their target slugs with good results. I do trust Berger and Nosler, and Barnes slugs. the new ELD-X from Hornady I have not tried yet. the ELD-M's 212 grain I have tried in my 300 win mag with very poor results. they said they would shoot in a 1:10" twist barrel. they did not. I would suggest you use the hunting rated slugs in your hunting loads. I like the Classic Hunter 185's; they really put down Elk without a second thought. I have used the 190 VLD hunters as well but I really believe the barrel rifling twist should be 1:8" for the length of the slug. "Marginal Stabilization" does not thrill me. I have shot out of my friend's 300 win mag a few of the 205 and 210 grain VLD Berger hunters. those work very well in a 1:8" twist. They are also very accurate as they would keep a very respectable 0.372" edge to edge with prepped/uniformed brass and 66.8 grains (210 grain) or 67.5 grains (205 grain) of H-4831 SSC and a magnum Win LRP.
Like I said earlier I have seen the result of "hybrid" target/tactical slugs in the field. I do not endorse their use, I rutinely discourage it. Yes it is due to "ethics" but more it's due to undue suffering of the animal. If you are going to harvest an animal, do it as cleanly as possible. Use a slug designed to expand and impart all it's energy in the animal.
end of my 2 cents.

 

[BigPrince]

So what was the expected outcome in cross posting this to pretty much every hunting forum?

I chipped in on the conversation on one before I noticed it at the top of the new posts on each site I go to. Seems like a grudge against Berger when shooting a bullet that says verbatim not for hunting use on the box and admitted bad shots? I also don't use field tips when hunting in bow season. (and I don't use 215s - I do have to 205 elite hunters and 245 eol elite hunters that will get used this year hopefully).

 

[Flash21]

I might as well be bringing up politics, but here it goes. I've been shooting the 215 Bergers out of my 300 win since 2017. Developed a great load shooting sub half minute at 2705 fps.

2017:

• Wife shot a cow at 260 yards. Didn't look for a blood trail because we could see the animal laying 40 yards away. Bullet worked. Wonderful.

2018:

• I shot at a cow. 300ish yards, poor rest, rushed/hectic shot. My wife, brother and I looked for about 1.5 hours. Couldn't find a drop of blood. No hair. Nothing. Three people looking all over for that long, we swore I missed. My other brother had a tag and ran off after the herd after my shot. He came back and asked if we found blood. No, we said. I guess I missed. He said alright. Let's head back to the truck. He started walking and we all followed closely behind. After a couple hundred yards he stepped to the side to reveal my dead elk laying there. He followed that elks tracks the whole way back to where we stood looking for blood and said that he didn't see a single drop. Granted this one is my fault; I hit it in the guts. I would still hope to see some sign of a hit.
• The next day my wife shot at a cow at 460 yards. She practices at this range all the time and I know she can make the shot. She doesn't shoot if she's not comfortable and confident. No sign at all of a hit. The four of us looked for half the day and couldn't find anything. She definitely could have missed, but after the previous day's display I would not be surprised at all if she hit it.
• Couple of weeks later I shot a cow at 260 yards. Ended up breaking the front shoulder and it only went 10 yards.

2019:

• I shot a bull at 40 yards. It ran maybe 70 yards with blood spewing everywhere and died. Happy
• My wife shot a bull at 260 yards and dropped it in it's tracks. Happy.

2020:

• This spring I shot a beautiful big color phased bear. 260 yards, prone, solid as a rock - I could hit a baseball with the gun at that range. The bear was over a hill and disappeared after the shot. It looked like I hit it in the scope. Walked up to it swearing I would find a beautiful dead bear. Nothing. No hair. No blood. Nothing. Looked all over. Nothing. Two weeks later I found a pretty monstrous (in my book) black bear skull in the same area. My bear? I'll never know for certain. Sickening.
• Monday I shot a bull. Thought it was dead. Walked up to it and it stood up. I shot it at ~30 yards broadside right in the boiler room. It flinched and kept standing. I shot it again, right in the boiler room. It took a couple steps and fell. I gave it 30 seconds and it was still pretty with it, so I shot it in the head. Still moving. Shot it in the head again and it finally faded slowly.

The first shot was at about 100 yards. None of the shots, except one head shot, had exit wounds. I found one copper jacket laying against the far side ribcage. The autopsy revealed that the internal organs were essentially fully intact. I saw no signs of the one "boiler room" shot. The other one, I saw a hole the size of my pointer finger through the lungs. I could barely stick my finger through the hole. The bullet didn't exit the far side of the animal, but penciled through the lungs - I would have expected to find a pencil exit.

I guess I'm starting to see why "not suitable for hunting" is stamped onto the box.

Unless somebody can show me what I'm doing wrong here, I'm pretty sure I'm done with the 215 hybrid. I might try the 205 Elite Hunters out. I'm also open to other suggestions.

Like the box says, don't use for hunting. Duh? How many millions of elk have fallen to the Nosler partition, swift A-frame, Barnes triple shock etc that are plenty accurate out to 500 and are specifically made for game like elk. Don't overthink.

 

[coyotezapper]

@treillw, I see that you also posted in LRO. Jeff (BROZ) has one of the best real-world accounts with Berger esp. with 215s >>> https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/comparing-the-berger-210-vld-to-the-215-hybrid.88657/

Broz is definately the go to source for berger 215's, BUT and this is a big BUT, most of the commenters here are missing a big piece to making the berger a reliable bullet and this is a step that Broz does to them and that is running a pin drill in to the hollow point. He does it to clean out the hBn after tumbling but even he admits that this step may help in making the berger more reliable. In his youtube video on hBn bullet coating he talks briefly about this.

IME I have had no issues with the bergers until I used the 338 250 EH and I had three complete pass through with no expansion or fragmentation - what most are calling penciling through. And all three of these were well placed shots behind the shoulder. The fourth shot I put in to the shoulder and dropped the bull but it took bone to make the bullet fragment. Once I got home I experimented with wet newspaper and was able to duplicate the bullet failure every time at different ranges. Once I took a pin drill to the hollow points the bullet fragmented perfectly every time.

FOR 100% BERGER BULLET PERFORMANCE OPEN UP / CLEAN UP THE HOLLOW POINT.

Pin drill kits can be purchased from ebay or amazon for under $20. I pick the bit closest to the size of the hollow point. Berger can give you this info or Bryan Litz's book also shows the hollow point size for each berger.

 

[BigPrince]

Broz is definately the go to source for berger 215's, BUT and this is a big BUT, most of the commenters here are missing a big piece to making the berger a reliable bullet and this is a step that Broz does to them and that is running a pin drill in to the hollow point. He does it to clean out the hBn after tumbling but even he admits that this step may help in making the berger more reliable. In his youtube video on hBn bullet coating he talks briefly about this.

IME I have had no issues with the bergers until I used the 338 250 EH and I had three complete pass through with no expansion or fragmentation - what most are calling penciling through. And all three of these were well placed shots behind the shoulder. The fourth shot I put in to the shoulder and dropped the bull but it took bone to make the bullet fragment. Once I got home I experimented with wet newspaper and was able to duplicate the bullet failure every time at different ranges. Once I took a pin drill to the hollow points the bullet fragmented perfectly every time.

FOR 100% BERGER BULLET PERFORMANCE OPEN UP / CLEAN UP THE HOLLOW POINT.

Pin drill kits can be purchased from ebay or amazon for under $20. I pick the bit closest to the size of the hollow point. Berger can give you this info or Bryan Litz's book also shows the hollow point size for each berger.

Think a Giraud meplat trimmer would work or would that be a different result?

 

[RAGGED EDGE]

This means more Berger bullets are available for those of us that have very good success with them. The "NUT" behind the trigger remains the biggest factor.

View attachment 222576

Every time you post this it cracks me up so BAD.........

 

[coyotezapper]

Think a Giraud meplat trimmer would work or would that be a different result?

A meplat trimmer will square the nose up and this will help but a pin drill will still be needed to clean up the hollow point. The pin needs to be run to the lead. I use a le wilson trimmer set up for meplat trimming only used with whidden meplat bushings.

 

[FEENIX]

Every time you post this it cracks me up so BAD.........

L L!

 

[Txsailfish]

I've never had luck with Berger's or Eld X running out of my 6.5 SAUM. I switched to 140 Grain Accubonds and am comfortable taking game, which winds up DRT from 35 yards out to 700.

 

[dargie12317]

I might as well be bringing up politics, but here it goes. I've been shooting the 215 Bergers out of my 300 win since 2017. Developed a great load shooting sub half minute at 2705 fps.

2017:

• Wife shot a cow at 260 yards. Didn't look for a blood trail because we could see the animal laying 40 yards away. Bullet worked. Wonderful.

2018:

• I shot at a cow. 300ish yards, poor rest, rushed/hectic shot. My wife, brother and I looked for about 1.5 hours. Couldn't find a drop of blood. No hair. Nothing. Three people looking all over for that long, we swore I missed. My other brother had a tag and ran off after the herd after my shot. He came back and asked if we found blood. No, we said. I guess I missed. He said alright. Let's head back to the truck. He started walking and we all followed closely behind. After a couple hundred yards he stepped to the side to reveal my dead elk laying there. He followed that elks tracks the whole way back to where we stood looking for blood and said that he didn't see a single drop. Granted this one is my fault; I hit it in the guts. I would still hope to see some sign of a hit.
• The next day my wife shot at a cow at 460 yards. She practices at this range all the time and I know she can make the shot. She doesn't shoot if she's not comfortable and confident. No sign at all of a hit. The four of us looked for half the day and couldn't find anything. She definitely could have missed, but after the previous day's display I would not be surprised at all if she hit it.
• Couple of weeks later I shot a cow at 260 yards. Ended up breaking the front shoulder and it only went 10 yards.

2019:

• I shot a bull at 40 yards. It ran maybe 70 yards with blood spewing everywhere and died. Happy
• My wife shot a bull at 260 yards and dropped it in it's tracks. Happy.

2020:

• This spring I shot a beautiful big color phased bear. 260 yards, prone, solid as a rock - I could hit a baseball with the gun at that range. The bear was over a hill and disappeared after the shot. It looked like I hit it in the scope. Walked up to it swearing I would find a beautiful dead bear. Nothing. No hair. No blood. Nothing. Looked all over. Nothing. Two weeks later I found a pretty monstrous (in my book) black bear skull in the same area. My bear? I'll never know for certain. Sickening.
• Monday I shot a bull. Thought it was dead. Walked up to it and it stood up. I shot it at ~30 yards broadside right in the boiler room. It flinched and kept standing. I shot it again, right in the boiler room. It took a couple steps and fell. I gave it 30 seconds and it was still pretty with it, so I shot it in the head. Still moving. Shot it in the head again and it finally faded slowly.

The first shot was at about 100 yards. None of the shots, except one head shot, had exit wounds. I found one copper jacket laying against the far side ribcage. The autopsy revealed that the internal organs were essentially fully intact. I saw no signs of the one "boiler room" shot. The other one, I saw a hole the size of my pointer finger through the lungs. I could barely stick my finger through the hole. The bullet didn't exit the far side of the animal, but penciled through the lungs - I would have expected to find a pencil exit.

I guess I'm starting to see why "not suitable for hunting" is stamped onto the box.

Unless somebody can show me what I'm doing wrong here, I'm pretty sure I'm done with the 215 hybrid. I might try the 205 Elite Hunters out. I'm also open to other suggestions.

Try Accubond 180 gr,