Done with 215 Bergers

[trailrider121]

I've been using 215's in my 300 WM with success, meaning dead animals recovered. Most either DRT or went 20 yards and expired. Just shot a cow elk at 250 yards and it had two exit holes. Went 15 yards and expired quickly. I inspect all the Hybrid 215's bullets I plan to hunt with prior before loading, by checking the bullet tip opening to insure the hollow point tip is not blocked from manufacturing. I don't enlarge to tip though. I get little to no meat loss using Bergers compared to Monolithic bullets. .Monolithic bullets fail too, seen way to many deer run away from mono bullets. Everything from great shot placement to poor shot placement. However, their is so many bullet manufactures out there today, and choose what works best for you and your application.

 

[Bdog35]

I might as well be bringing up politics, but here it goes. I've been shooting the 215 Bergers out of my 300 win since 2017. Developed a great load shooting sub half minute at 2705 fps.

2017:

• Wife shot a cow at 260 yards. Didn't look for a blood trail because we could see the animal laying 40 yards away. Bullet worked. Wonderful.

2018:

• I shot at a cow. 300ish yards, poor rest, rushed/hectic shot. My wife, brother and I looked for about 1.5 hours. Couldn't find a drop of blood. No hair. Nothing. Three people looking all over for that long, we swore I missed. My other brother had a tag and ran off after the herd after my shot. He came back and asked if we found blood. No, we said. I guess I missed. He said alright. Let's head back to the truck. He started walking and we all followed closely behind. After a couple hundred yards he stepped to the side to reveal my dead elk laying there. He followed that elks tracks the whole way back to where we stood looking for blood and said that he didn't see a single drop. Granted this one is my fault; I hit it in the guts. I would still hope to see some sign of a hit.
• The next day my wife shot at a cow at 460 yards. She practices at this range all the time and I know she can make the shot. She doesn't shoot if she's not comfortable and confident. No sign at all of a hit. The four of us looked for half the day and couldn't find anything. She definitely could have missed, but after the previous day's display I would not be surprised at all if she hit it.
• Couple of weeks later I shot a cow at 260 yards. Ended up breaking the front shoulder and it only went 10 yards.

2019:

• I shot a bull at 40 yards. It ran maybe 70 yards with blood spewing everywhere and died. Happy
• My wife shot a bull at 260 yards and dropped it in it's tracks. Happy.

2020:

• This spring I shot a beautiful big color phased bear. 260 yards, prone, solid as a rock - I could hit a baseball with the gun at that range. The bear was over a hill and disappeared after the shot. It looked like I hit it in the scope. Walked up to it swearing I would find a beautiful dead bear. Nothing. No hair. No blood. Nothing. Looked all over. Nothing. Two weeks later I found a pretty monstrous (in my book) black bear skull in the same area. My bear? I'll never know for certain. Sickening.
• Monday I shot a bull. Thought it was dead. Walked up to it and it stood up. I shot it at ~30 yards broadside right in the boiler room. It flinched and kept standing. I shot it again, right in the boiler room. It took a couple steps and fell. I gave it 30 seconds and it was still pretty with it, so I shot it in the head. Still moving. Shot it in the head again and it finally faded slowly.

The first shot was at about 100 yards. None of the shots, except one head shot, had exit wounds. I found one copper jacket laying against the far side ribcage. The autopsy revealed that the internal organs were essentially fully intact. I saw no signs of the one "boiler room" shot. The other one, I saw a hole the size of my pointer finger through the lungs. I could barely stick my finger through the hole. The bullet didn't exit the far side of the animal, but penciled through the lungs - I would have expected to find a pencil exit.

I guess I'm starting to see why "not suitable for hunting" is stamped onto the box.

Unless somebody can show me what I'm doing wrong here, I'm pretty sure I'm done with the 215 hybrid. I might try the 205 Elite Hunters out. I'm also open to other suggestions.

Don't shoot Berger's for hunting, they are crap, target practice is fine. Try nosler, Hornady , anything but Berger's of which I'm speaking from personal experience. Good day.

 

[Huntz]

I guess I am not understanding why someone would use a bullet labeled not for hunting use,for hunting?Actually the Berger target bullets have a smaller core and thicker jacket.They tend to pencil through animals ,rather than expand.Yes ,you can have success using that type of bullet,but it also enhances your chances of losing game just for them to wander off and die.There are plenty of bullets out there meant for hunting,so why take a chance?JMHO,Huntz

 

[poolguy60]

Wiping the tears out of my eyes on that one....

The Texas Heart shot very effective

 

[Pdvdh]

Seems like the price of Berger bullets has increased quite a bit since coming under new ownership, no?

I haven't been buying them so haven't followed their pricing for a good while. But when I recently searched for heavy .224 bullets for a 22 Creed build, I was surprised at the pricing of the 90-95gr Berger bullets. Ended up buying the plastic-tipped 88gr Hornady. Cost was a deciding factor.

 

[Deputy819]

The Texas Heart shot very effective

I guess so.... Just seems so.....discourteous. Dang it....I'm laughing all over again. I can't even see what I'm trying to anneal.

 

[mace]

Their VLD hunting bullets work great, why do you insist on using a target bullet? I think the company's that make bullets make them for a specific purpose, why deviant from their advise on the box of bullets you load!

 

[kbrent1223]

About 5 yrs back I'd worked up a nice load with 210 vld for my 308. Shot a whitetail buck at about 175 ( I routinely shoot out to 500, as I live on a farm and can practice frequently). I heard bullet, and saw deer react. He bolted. Waited a bit and walked down to where I'd shot him. Found a very minute blood trail for bout 20 yards ( very small drops ) then it disappeared. I felt terrible. Scoured the area for few hours never found him. Chalked it up to "crap happens". Few days later I was in same stand Another buck in dang near the same spot. Heard bullet hit, deer reacted, bolted. Walked down. Same thing. Two drops of blood. That was it. Scoured area. Found him piled up about 80 yards into the woods. Shot was dead on. Small exit wound. While dragging him out I jump some vultures. Found the first deer from few days earlier. Look like coyotes had drug him out from somewhere. Shot on him was dead on. Still using Berger's but I'm a bit concerned by that result. Tend to lean toward eld-x more now.

 

[SSG Graybush]

I might as well be bringing up politics, but here it goes. I've been shooting the 215 Bergers out of my 300 win since 2017. Developed a great load shooting sub half minute at 2705 fps.

2017:

• Wife shot a cow at 260 yards. Didn't look for a blood trail because we could see the animal laying 40 yards away. Bullet worked. Wonderful.

2018:

• I shot at a cow. 300ish yards, poor rest, rushed/hectic shot. My wife, brother and I looked for about 1.5 hours. Couldn't find a drop of blood. No hair. Nothing. Three people looking all over for that long, we swore I missed. My other brother had a tag and ran off after the herd after my shot. He came back and asked if we found blood. No, we said. I guess I missed. He said alright. Let's head back to the truck. He started walking and we all followed closely behind. After a couple hundred yards he stepped to the side to reveal my dead elk laying there. He followed that elks tracks the whole way back to where we stood looking for blood and said that he didn't see a single drop. Granted this one is my fault; I hit it in the guts. I would still hope to see some sign of a hit.
• The next day my wife shot at a cow at 460 yards. She practices at this range all the time and I know she can make the shot. She doesn't shoot if she's not comfortable and confident. No sign at all of a hit. The four of us looked for half the day and couldn't find anything. She definitely could have missed, but after the previous day's display I would not be surprised at all if she hit it.
• Couple of weeks later I shot a cow at 260 yards. Ended up breaking the front shoulder and it only went 10 yards.

2019:

• I shot a bull at 40 yards. It ran maybe 70 yards with blood spewing everywhere and died. Happy
• My wife shot a bull at 260 yards and dropped it in it's tracks. Happy.

2020:

• This spring I shot a beautiful big color phased bear. 260 yards, prone, solid as a rock - I could hit a baseball with the gun at that range. The bear was over a hill and disappeared after the shot. It looked like I hit it in the scope. Walked up to it swearing I would find a beautiful dead bear. Nothing. No hair. No blood. Nothing. Looked all over. Nothing. Two weeks later I found a pretty monstrous (in my book) black bear skull in the same area. My bear? I'll never know for certain. Sickening.
• Monday I shot a bull. Thought it was dead. Walked up to it and it stood up. I shot it at ~30 yards broadside right in the boiler room. It flinched and kept standing. I shot it again, right in the boiler room. It took a couple steps and fell. I gave it 30 seconds and it was still pretty with it, so I shot it in the head. Still moving. Shot it in the head again and it finally faded slowly.

The first shot was at about 100 yards. None of the shots, except one head shot, had exit wounds. I found one copper jacket laying against the far side ribcage. The autopsy revealed that the internal organs were essentially fully intact. I saw no signs of the one "boiler room" shot. The other one, I saw a hole the size of my pointer finger through the lungs. I could barely stick my finger through the hole. The bullet didn't exit the far side of the animal, but penciled through the lungs - I would have expected to find a pencil exit.

I guess I'm starting to see why "not suitable for hunting" is stamped onto the box.

Unless somebody can show me what I'm doing wrong here, I'm pretty sure I'm done with the 215 hybrid. I might try the 205 Elite Hunters out. I'm also open to other suggestions.

I loaned my back up 270 wsm shooting 130 classic hunters to a buddy on opening day of WY buck a few weeks ago. He shot a running 4x2 in the guts. Just hair at impact spot, no blood. They found it a 100+ yards away bedded and dispatched it with a final shot. The next evening I used it as I needed a better handling rifle where I was going and shot a 3x3 at 50 yards that was quatering hard to my left through the front shoulder, it mule kicked and went 30 yards and expired. The lungs were mush. Upon skinning it the shoulder was completely destroyed and there was a fist size hole though the rib cage with no exit wound. If your going to shoot a Berger or even a BT you better put it on the vitals. If you do not make a good shots a exit is nice for tracking but a good shot on the vitals with a Berger or fragmenting match bullet works as good or better. As all the energy is dumped on the vvitals. Shot placement is key. Really any bullet on the vitals with decent energy will kill. I shoot Bergers cuz I have more confidence they will hit the vitals at longer ranges. But a LRX is not a bad choice eithet. You do you.

 

[Tumbleweed]

Berger's need speed, plain and simple if you can't get em moving between 2800-2900 you will start seeing failure

The makes no sense at all since all that matters is impact velocity on the animal. What ranges are you talking about? Is that not enough velocity for point blank range? Lol

 

[Tumbleweed]

Another thing to consider with bergers is thier stability factor. For example: if your load is 2700 fps from a 1-10" twist, you may have marginal stability. It may be stable enough for ½ minute accuracy, but have marginal stability for terminal performance. This has been an issue for me with the 156 elite hunter at 2700 fps ( 6.5 creedmoor). I was getting great accuracy from my 8 twist but weird results on game. The berger stability calculator said I had marginal stability at 2700. I switched to rl-26 and got my velocity up to 2875 fps, stability increased and terminal performance has greatly improved. My experience is with white tail and hogs anywhere from 30 to 750 yards.

Long story short, people claiming that you need to be driving the 215 at 3000 fps are correct, but maybe for the wrong reasons. It isn't about energy or impact velocity, it's about stability! A faster muzzle velocity generates more rpm's out of the same barrel vs slower velocity.

Barrel twist is far more critical than muzzle velocity. A guy can run them at 2700fps out of a 9 twist and be just fine. Muzzle velocity only helps to a smaller degree

 

[FEENIX]

"IBTL!"

 

[Straight-Shot]

Interesting thread.... I worked up some loads using Berger 7mm VLD Hunting Bullets (that IS on the label) for a mule deer hunt in West Texas. The bullet is easier to tune to the rifle and load than others I've worked with. Wonderfully accurate. I was very excited to be using them on this hunt.

However, here is what I experienced.. The bullets fragment - they don't mushroom. Essentially they shred in almost conical fashion from impact to exit (if there is an exit). Other bullets I have used (Hornady, Nosler) mushroom and most of the time punch out the other side.

The first doe I took I thought I missed. Shot hit the shoulder (pencil entry) and created a softball size exit through the other shoulder. However, she just stood there for a good while and then started to walk away, started to limp and then fell over. The second doe was hit much the same way, pencil entry in one shoulder and softball size exit on the off side. Again she just stood there then walked about 30 years and fell over. I've never seen that before.

The bucks were another matter. The fist one was hit in the shoulder, he laid down. Then he got up and started heading for a canyon. I was fortunate and got a chest shot that anchored him. The second buck required more shots than I want to admit but I didn't understand at the time why my shots (shoulder, lung and heart alignment) weren't doing what I expected. There were no exits on either buck (much bigger animals than the does). Cleaning them showed the damage I described earlier. I was expecting for find lungs etc... liquified as in times past... not the case.. mostly shredded.

No animals were lost but due to that experience but I've gone back to Hornady, Nosler etc.. because I think the hydrostatic shock / dumping of energy is more effective than the grenade effect. I realize others will stand by their Berger experience and I don't dispute that...... I am just going to feel more comfortable with a different bullet.

 

[Tumbleweed]

I don't know, 215 kills an elk within a very reasonable amount of time and distance with a gut shot? The list of bullets that will do that is very short. The 215 saved your butt on that one. If you want small holes and pass throughs so you can track elk all over the county, use a barnes.