Differences between 6.5 SAUM & 6.5 Sherman Short

[highdrum]

I'm running a 130 Berger vld 3000fps in a 16" barrel short action and I've run 123 scenars at 3060fps…where would the SS be?

His answer is a bit mixed. The SS holds less powder than the Saum in total water capacity, and has a longer neck, so even less usable capacity. The ONLY place where the SS is more practical is in a true short action. A case of less capacity will never outpace a larger case at EQUAL chamber psi. I've had three Sherman wildcats. I have just straight saums now.

 

[lancetkenyon]

I'm running a 130 Berger vld 3000fps in a 16" barrel short action and I've run 123 scenars at 3060fps…where would the SS be?

Probably near identical.
I run a 130 OTM in my 20" 6.5SS @ 3110fps w. RL23, not a max load. A 140 Hyb goes 3085fps fairly easily. A 156 CAN be ran at max loads at 3001fps, but brass life suffers greatly. So I backed it down to 2916fps.

 

[JFCurl]

His answer is a bit mixed. The SS holds less powder than the Saum in total water capacity, and has a longer neck, so even less usable capacity. The ONLY place where the SS is more practical is in a true short action. A case of less capacity will never outpace a larger case at EQUAL chamber psi. I've had three Sherman wildcats. I have just straight saums now.

Isn't the purpose of the SS exactly what you said - Short Action and not meant to be compared to medium or long action performance. If you already have a short action receiver and loading in a magazine for hunting, would not the SS be the best choice if you don't mind the increased cost of brass and a sizer die. If it's for hunting, you would never fire a 1000 rounds and never wear out your first 200 pieces of brass (keeping pressure equal). Barrel life would also not be a factor but you would have room in you COAL for a little throat erosion over time to stay in your sweet spot a couple thousands at a time. You would also not be loading your bearing surface into the donut if you recycled your 200 pieces of brass enough times.

Specifically in your situation when you switched from Shermans to Saums were you originally in short actions and moved up to medium or long actions or are you running Saums in short actions after the switch. I am asking specifically for my benefit because I am planning to convert my short action hunting rifle from prc to ss next year unless I find a good reason not to. Thanks

 

[SteveBurton]

Any terminal reports with the 144?

I used the 144 Hybrids in my 6.5 PRC and they are deadly. I just drilled out the tips since they are almost closed from the factory. Here's a pic I got from Lance.

 

[308win]

Any terminal reports with the 144?

I've had nothing but excellent performance from 2 different LRHTs. Shot 2 deer with a 85.5gr LRHT (223AI @ 2900fps muzzle) one at 50yrds the other at 279yrds. At 50, had a golf ball sized exit and a blood trail a blind man could follow. At 279yrds, bullet entered between ribs and started expansion in the close side lung. Totally destroyed the offside lung with a thumb sized exit. Deer went 7 paces stood for 20 seconds and fell over dead, never even twitched.

Entrance

Exit

Exit

First lung exit

Feeder leg after exit

Same thing with 144 LRHT.
953yrds, 144 started at 3202fps
Entered big pig in neck, exit was just under ear. Entrance on small pig and no exit. Like a dummy, I didn't open up the little pig and recover the bullet.

 

[308win]

I've had nothing but excellent performance from 2 different LRHTs. Shot 2 deer with a 85.5gr LRHT (223AI @ 2900fps muzzle) one at 50yrds the other at 279yrds. At 50, had a golf ball sized exit and a blood trail a blind man could follow. At 279yrds, bullet entered between ribs and started expansion in the close side lung. Totally destroyed the offside lung with a thumb sized exit. Deer went 7 paces stood for 20 seconds and fell over dead, never even twitched.
View attachment 512874
Entrance
View attachment 512876
Exit
View attachment 512877
Exit
View attachment 512878
First lung exit
View attachment 512879
Feeder leg after exit

Same thing with 144 LRHT.
953yrds, 144 started at 3202fps
Entered big pig in neck, exit was just under ear. Entrance on small pig and no exit. Like a dummy, I didn't open up the little pig and recover the bullet.
View attachment 512880
View attachment 512881
View attachment 512882

Forgot to mention, did nothing to the tips...just like they came out of the box

 

[FEENIX]

If you are asking me, I built a 6.5SAUM Improved. Currently shooting 130 grain Terminal Ascent at 3250 from a 21" barrel. Shooting Berger 144 LRHT at 3150 but single feeding due to length.

What improvements did you end with, sharper neck angle/shorter neck, etc.? Those velocities out of 21" are no slouch.

 

[elkaholic]

I'm running a 130 Berger vld 3000fps in a 16" barrel short action and I've run 123 scenars at 3060fps…where would the SS be?

I don't have data on a 16" but a 20" will run a 140 at 3050+ no problem.
a 156 will run nearly 3000 and thats where the saum loses even more ground in a short action because of taking up case capacity.

 

[elkaholic]

the new /B chamber is superior to the old chamber as well with better brass life and the SS doesn't have doughnut problems that are often associated with the saum because of bullet placement in the neck. its simply a better design in a short action!

 

[elkaholic]

deleted

 

[elkaholic]

His answer is a bit mixed. The SS holds less powder than the Saum in total water capacity, and has a longer neck, so even less usable capacity. The ONLY place where the SS is more practical is in a true short action. A case of less capacity will never outpace a larger case at EQUAL chamber psi. I've had three Sherman wildcats. I have just straight saums now.

Here is what both amazes and amuses me. The SS has slightly less capacity TRUE, The neck is slightly longer by .020" TRUE. That said, the SS is .075" shorter at the neck/shoulder jct where it counts. Real useable case capacity is measured by volume behind the bullet when the bullet engages the lands. So, .075" more than makes up the difference in the case capacity itself because of the relation between the bullet, the neck, and the lands.
Some of the detractors on this forum for years have screamed about pressure, but now, you're claiming the saum will run as fast as the SS in a short action!! So how much pressure is the saum running? If anything, the saum is running more pressure than the SS in this case. It can't be both ways boys! The ONLY way a saum might keep up is in a long action with more FB, PERIOD! so by your own logic, a lot of your own comments over the years have exposed the truth.
Not only that, but by your own admission, the SS DOES handle pressure better. Win, Win. The saum is a great case and always will be, but for those who love to hate the Sherman, you're just plain wrong!
I do appreciate the fact that you admit the SS is better in a short action, for a LOT of reasons! its also just as good in a longer action as well because you can put more FB in if you want and still keep the bullet in the longer neck.

 

[highdrum]

Isn't the purpose of the SS exactly what you said - Short Action and not meant to be compared to medium or long action performance. If you already have a short action receiver and loading in a magazine for hunting, would not the SS be the best choice if you don't mind the increased cost of brass and a sizer die. If it's for hunting, you would never fire a 1000 rounds and never wear out your first 200 pieces of brass (keeping pressure equal). Barrel life would also not be a factor but you would have room in you COAL for a little throat erosion over time to stay in your sweet spot a couple thousands at a time. You would also not be loading your bearing surface into the donut if you recycled your 200 pieces of brass enough times.

Specifically in your situation when you switched from Shermans to Saums were you originally in short actions and moved up to medium or long actions or are you running Saums in short actions after the switch. I am asking specifically for my benefit because I am planning to convert my short action hunting rifle from prc to ss next year unless I find a good reason not to. Thanks

A short action Saum with 140 hybrids with a 140fb keeps the bearing above neck shoulder junction and fit in a wyatts box no problem. The SS runs heavier(150+gr) bullets more optimally in a short action, yes. I've had plenty of luck running saums in short action with 135jlk, 140hyb, 142smk, at 3050-3100 fps. If you're wanting to run 156s optimally in a saum, you need 240k freebore and touching lands you'll be 3.1" coal. The SS case having a 300 VS 280 nk of Saum, will still need 200k+ freebore to keep the 156 above nk shoulder and have room to play with seating depth. If a guys sole desire is a 156 in a short action, yes the SS is a good choice.

@elkaholic
The SS and a saum, both cases loaded with the same bullet, and the bullet in the same bearing position from the neck shoulder junction, same powders. The Saum has more usable case capacity at that point. At equal chamber pressures, the Saum will be faster, period.

The square chamber walls and 40° do lower bolt thrust, but do nothing to reduce chamber psi. No free lunch here.

 

[elkaholic]

A short action Saum with 140 hybrids with a 140fb keeps the bearing above neck shoulder junction and fit in a wyatts box no problem. The SS runs heavier(150+gr) bullets more optimally in a short action, yes. I've had plenty of luck running saums in short action with 135jlk, 140hyb, 142smk, at 3050-3100 fps. If you're wanting to run 156s optimally in a saum, you need 240k freebore and touching lands you'll be 3.1" coal. The SS case having a 300 VS 280 nk of Saum, will still need 200k+ freebore to keep the 156 above nk shoulder and have room to play with seating depth. If a guys sole desire is a 156 in a short action, yes the SS is a good choice.

@elkaholic
The SS and a saum, both cases loaded with the same bullet, and the bullet in the same bearing position from the neck shoulder junction, same powders. The Saum has more usable case capacity at that point. At equal chamber pressures, the Saum will be faster, period.

The square chamber walls and 40° do lower bolt thrust, but do nothing to reduce chamber psi. No free lunch here.

Maybe, which I doubt, but you don't need all those ifs with the SS. And, you who hates pressure, did not at all address how the saum
does all that in a short action without running 80,000 PSI like my SS does (according to you and others). Most people see through i!

 

[Mike D Texas]

Any terminal reports with the 144?

No. I took it as backup to my 264 Win Mag Improved on my Wyoming antelope hunt but didn't shoot anything with it.