Cutting Edge Bullet Kills

[barnesuser28]

The cheer leading continues and despite being told we'd see a recovered bullet we haven't. Just because a bullet passes through an animal and it kills the animal that doesn't mean it is performing as it should nor does it mean you won't lose a animal at some point. Shoot the **** things into phone books or water jugs so we can see a recovered bullet(s). I thought rocket scientist like to test things to no end. Hell being a rocket scientist you ought to scrounge up some ballistic gelatin and test it proper. Some super slow motion cameras would be cool as well to tell the real story.

I will be doing some low velocity and high velocity impacts with the 252 grain CE in wet newspapers, I will post results with pics. But, based on the measurements i took of the meplat width and depth of the HP i dont think they are going to do too well at low velocity

 

[highridge1]

They look like a good bullet. I just don't see 2x the price of about everything else.In the .308 cal a guy is going to be hard pressed to beat the Berger 230 gr in the big 300 mags it has a much higher BC than the Cutting edge bullet offerings and is wicked accurate.Those are some great pictures posted thanks for sharing.

 

[Tikkamike]

No one on this Forum owes you anything, let alone to demonstrate something to a standard of proof that you prescribe. Pretty remarkable that you seem to expect it.

I've shot maybe 6 animals with the 210 VLD from a .300 Win Mag and have already had two less than desirable experiences. These two experiences have both been described in detail in Threads on this Forum in years gone by. One on a black bear and one on a Dall ram.

Those that never have a VLD fail to expand, or have never had one disintegrate in the first 8-10 inches of penetration have been much more fortunate than I. When I read of dozens upon dozens of animals slayed with no poor performances from the VLDs, I begin to think I must be the unluckiest guy in the world when it comes to VLD performance on large game.

I am right there with you. I dont shoot berger vld's but in my 338 I shoot the SMK and it has been anything but consistent. sometimes it wont open at all sometimes it comes apart instantly. I have a friend who uses the 168vld in his 7mm and he has lost elk, deer and bear but refuses to try another bullet because he is drinking the BC Koolaide...not saying its unimportant because it IS important but to me I would rather have a bullet I can count on. It was mentioned on here that (bigngreen i believe) that he kills a lot of elk. Well I do too 2 per year until this year where we are now allowed 3 per person. along with 6 deer and 6 antelope. I put a lot of animals down and I use a lot of Barnes and a few noslers I have had nothing but great results 14-15 animals per year. my buddy Eolkoholic who used to use bergers in his 6.5 had zero faith because they seemed to fail every time he used them. he is now a Barnes and Nosler guy. I just dont see how people say fragmenting bullets are the only way to go. you cant live with sucking chest wounds, and you cant walk with broken bones. Maybe barnes arent the perfect LR bullet but they are the perfect killing bullet. If ce can shoot as well, and kill as well and are as easy to get to shoot as a Barnes then id like to try them, however them splitting down the middle in the above picture is kind of a turn off for me

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Phorwath, Your experience is no different than everyone else in our hunting group down here. With all the cow tags we get to see 30+ elk kills per year some years. Some days 5+ per day depending on how many are hunting together. Several guys went through the berger bullet phase with many bad experiences on elk. No person in our group with the number of elk kills we see currently shoots Berger bullets. A bullet that has a history of blowing into a zillion pieces is not a good choice for big tough elk.

Mike, I like your dad's quote. My sentiments exactly. I think he and I would get along very well. I personally have never seen overkill either. If I could afford one of KiwiGregs big rifles I wouldn't mind trying it.

With my technical degrees I have enough credit hours in math and physics alone for a bachelors degree. It defies physics that a Barnes bullet that retains near 100% of it's weight would stop in an elk shoulder while a thin jacket fragile target type bullet that sheds it's jacket and loses virtually all it's weight would blow right through the elk and have perfect performance every time.

In over 40 years of hunting I have found the opposite to be true which follows along with what physics would indicate. I have seen untold numbers of animals taken with barnes bullets with the same dependable blow through performance every time. That includes through both shoulders of grizzly, bison, elk, deer, antelope, sheep, moose, caribou, etc. About anything a guy could test them on.

I am not on here preaching for a guy to use any particular bullet. I am not going to make a dollar no matter what a guy buys in this industry. I just show results of my experiences because those experiences are extensive and may help someone out with less opportunity for testing.

Thin jacket lead core bullets shed their weight faster than Oprah on a crash diet.

 

[bigngreen]

With my technical degrees I have enough credit hours in math and physics alone for a bachelors degree. It defies physics that a Barnes bullet that retains near 100% of it's weight would stop in an elk shoulder while a thin jacket fragile target type bullet that sheds it's jacket and loses virtually all it's weight would blow right through the elk and have perfect performance every time.

I'm not trying to poop on this thread, I'm very interested in the CE's even though I'm knee deep into them and have yet to get them to shoot so last night I ordered some of the 270cals which I can usually get to shoot with ease, if it seems I'm harping on the CE's it because I want to get them to shoot good enough to shoot game with them and make a decision based on what I pull out of game, that's it I'm trying to give them a fair shake.

The Barnes failed to penetrate because it was to hard and to large it simply hit the wall where as the jacketed bullet did not even open till the bone and it opened and the tip likely took a lot of bone out of the way of the shank which was able to continue through the bone into the vitals. Very simply a case of the Barnes having to large a frontal area vs it's momentum so it deflected to the side and out the front of the shoulder.
Actually I'm giving the CE's a shake because they are or seem to be softer than the Barnes and I like that, I think it would be good to learn and know a bullet that would be legal to use in non lead states. If I can get the 270 to shoot them I'll take them to Wyoming with me to shoot beside the other bullets I have and see how they do, I'm fairly open minded about the CE's.

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

I can't help you with the 270's. The only CE bullets I have shot anything with are the 30 and 338 caliber so I can't comment on the others. I can't understand why they would not shoot in your 338. So far I have been lucky and they have shot in everything I have put them in. I would be glad to share some load info if it might help. I hate to see anybody spend the dollars and not have them work out. I have shot the 252 Max-Agg in my 338-378 wby with good results. That is the only one of the 252's I have tried. But then I went to the 260 grain for a little more bc and it also shot well. Best of luck to you with the 270's. I have a 270 winchester and a couple 270 wby's so I am interested in your report on the 270's.

My 338's are all Hart 1-10 twist except for the remington 700 and Tikka T3. I don't know that your barrel may have something to do with it but that is what mine shoot in.

 

[Broz]

I think it would be good to add this here. I feel it is good info for anyone no matter what bullet they choose. Since there has been a little Berger bashing and some of it has lead to saying they are "inconsistant", "blow up" and "pencil through" I think I know why some hunters may have had these results. First, I doubt anyone here would argue that Bergers are among the most accuarte bullet you could load. Now if there were something wrong or inconsistant with their construction, causing them to be inconsistant in game, I don't see how they could fly so accuratly to distances well past 1000 yards. Especially when you consider they are spinning 200,000 rpm's in some cases. So I think common sense would be to realize they are constructed very consistantly. How could they do all of these inconsistant and oposite things on impact? It is y belief that many times the tip of the bullets are damaged durring the seating process. I have seen it first hand. This can be from the bullet actually bottoming out in the seating plug closing the tip. Or also from a poor fitting seating plug with a different angle that applies force to a narrow band of the bullet near the tip. I have seen ammo that other people loaded with both of thes problems. If you start a circular dent in the jacket, or close the tip of the bullet, this will surely result in some degree of inconsistancy as far as how it opens. These problems induced by some less expensive dies that apply alot of neck tension, can also magnify the issue. So be careful guys. This is the only explanation I have as to why some people swear by the performance of a bullet in game and a few other have seen failures. No matter what bullet you use, protect the tips. The tip is very important as to how the bullet will open and its terminal performance.lightbulb

Jeff

 

[elkaholic]

The cheer leading continues and despite being told we'd see a recovered bullet we haven't. Just because a bullet passes through an animal and it kills the animal that doesn't mean it is performing as it should nor does it mean you won't lose a animal at some point. Shoot the **** things into phone books or water jugs so we can see a recovered bullet(s). I thought rocket scientist like to test things to no end. Hell being a rocket scientist you ought to scrounge up some ballistic gelatin and test it proper. Some super slow motion cameras would be cool as well to tell the real story.

I like your point that bullets passing thru animals don't mean squat! I was going to raise this point a few days ago but refrained. Anyone who has ever seen what a full jacket military round will do, knows that the hole is often larger on the exit but it certainly doesn't make it a hunting bullet!
As far as consistency goes, there is a great deal of difference between consistent accuracy and terminal performance being consistent! There is no possible way that a bullet jacket that is squeezed down from .014" thickness in say a .308" diameter with a .060" meplat can perform consistently on game! And that isn't "Berger bashing" because it doesn't matter whether it is a Berger, SMK, or one of my own! That's not to say you can't have devastating results, but we are talking "consistent" here. This is why I test constantly and I feel that I have learned a great deal by doing it regardless of whether everyone agrees with my testing methods. Again, unrecovered bullets don't tell you much! People may disagree on whether a ballistic tip is better or worse for a given application but I can guarantee you they are more predictable and consistent so if the bullet is manufactured with a certain result in mind, it will perform better! All the tests that I run are with WORSE CASE in mind. By this I mean, what is lowest velocity the bullet will expand on a given hit with least resistance on an animal and what is the highest velocity that a bullet will hold together sufficiently to penetrate the vitals with a high resistance impact area on an animal. This requires two entirely different tests. Sometimes I get the feeling that when some folks do test, they do so going into the test set up to prove a preconceived notion! When I did research work in the forest industry, that was called "Abra Ka Data"! Everyone on the forum is free to use whatever works for them, but I think an open mind might be quite benificial for the hunter, and the animal....Rich

 

[Tikkamike]

I believe I was the one raising the word "inconsistent" first. and I know for absolutely certain the SMK gives very inconsistent results on game. the SMK is a very accurate bullet and has won more matches than most if not all other bullets so I believe they are just as consistent dimensionally as a berger (I have shot both SMK and 300gr berger gen 2's in my lapua and the SMK was far more accurate) My ammunition stays in a padded hard case that remains closed and upright until I take a shell out and put it in the chamber. My bullets are seated on the ogive with my Redding competition dies and the VLD seater plug. and yes they give very inconsistent results. sometimes they will blow a deer to smithereens sometimes they will pencil through. I had luck on the last whitetail I shot. I had a 164 3/8" buck come out at 240 yards. I knew I was going to destroy the cape but it went through without even expanding or if it did it wasn't much and the mount looks great. and it went through both shoulders. the norm is softball sized exits though. I have watched elkoholic307 and his father shoot deer with 140 vlds and the bullets exploded on the side of the rib cage or shoulder. sometimes they work though and go in and do what the frangible bullet crowd likes to see. So this is where the "inconsistency" comment comes from. its a target bullet its not designed to do anything but fly straight and put a hole in the paper. copper is just like any other metal its makeup is never the same from lot to lot. that's why sometimes a barrel maker can produce a dud, metallurgy is not something I am an expert in but I did spend 6 years as a sheet metal guy working on jets in the AF so I know a little about metal and its properties. This is why Nosler, Speer, swift, Hornady etc have spent so many thousands of dollars developing their "controlled expansion" technology As we all know its never perfect. everything has its shortcomings in one way or another but they have certainly come a long way from the days when the Core-lokt was the best option.
I often wonder why it used to be a frangible bullet was nothing but heartache but now its the cool thing. I bet 300 grain corelokt bullets in my 338 lapua would give similar results to my matchkings and bergers just with a lower BC and almost nobody will even consider loading a corelokt anymore.

And I happen to disagree that an unrecovered bullet doesnt mean squat. if the animal is dead and i can see it did serious internal damage, broke bones and kept going I consider it great bullet performance.. what more are we after than dead animals?

 

[elkaholic]

Mike..I agree with the dead animal, internal damage, etc. being the desired result. The point I was trying to make, but probably didn't explain well was, my testing with Berger vld's, has often been an all or nothing type expansion, so an exit hole, while it may have killed the animal (this time) doesn't mean the bullet expanded......Rich

 

[Tikkamike]

Mike..I agree with the dead animal, internal damage, etc. being the desired result. The point I was trying to make, but probably didn't explain well was, my testing with Berger vld's, has often been an all or nothing type expansion, so an exit hole, while it may have killed the animal (this time) doesn't mean the bullet expanded......Rich

Gotcha and I agree with you 100%

 

[elkaholic]

Gotcha and I agree with you 100%

I also agree that the SMK may well be the MOST inconsistent of all I've tested. I strongly believe that the angle of impact, on a tangent ogive, makes it more difficult to expand than a secant, all else equal. The SMK jacket is no thicker than a J4, in fact is a thou or two thinner, yet the SMK is more difficult to expand than a Berger........Rich

 

[bigngreen]

I recover a small percentage of bullets every year after they exit an animal, light snow and the step terrain I shoot I'll find some every year, that is what kinda bummed me out about Accubonds the one's I found were barely open after clearing a mule deer. I do my best to find bullets any time I shoot, I have a small collection of SMK's and Berger 300's shot at 1890 yards and the 100% of the Bergers open well and the SMK's are perty much just bent bananas.

My dad's 6.5 Sherman shooting 140 Berger was one of the most consistent rifles this last year, shot mule deer through the shoulders, lungs and a few goats as well all holes the same and nothing we hit would stop them, not one bullet opened until starting into the chest cavity and exited with a golf ballish size hole with what ever it went through hanging out the hole.

You should see what a lost river solid does to an elk from a 375 Cheytac when it tumbles, it surely is dead gun)

 

[barnesuser28]

I do my best to find bullets any time I shoot, I have a small collection of SMK's and Berger 300's shot at 1890 yards and the 100% of the Bergers open well and the SMK's are perty much just bent bananas.

Rhian do you have a couple pics of the bergers you could send my way?