Cutting Edge Bullet Kills

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Thanks and I understand hunters want to know so they can make good educated decisions. I just try to be very careful to present everything in good taste so as not to offend anyone.

As much money as I spend hunting all over north america every year I am going to use the absolute best products I can find to give me the best opportunity for success. The most accurate, highest bc/velocity ratio hunting bullet I can find that works. So far this bullet has done well for me with the best accuracy and highest bc/velocity ratio I can find. The extra velocity I am getting with this bullet compared to the lead core bullets I was using combined with a high bc per weight gives me great ballistics that outperform any other bullet I have tried.

I spent last summer and this summer testing these bullets in numerous rifles. I get better accuracy and ballistics with these bullets to the ranges I hunt than with anything else I have tried. That is why I have gone to this bullet in all my primary hunting rifles. With one shot I have killed everything I have shot at.

Basically it comes down to you can't have it all. Like everything else in life there is much grey area and you have to go with the averages. Copper bullets like these and the Barnes have much different effects on animals than lead core bullets. Tough, quality lead core hunting bullets have much better effects on game overall than VLD target/hunting type bullets however many choose the vld type for better ballistics to hit the game and hope for the best.

With lead core vld type target/hunting bullets there will be a high wounding loss percentage because of bullets not having dependable performance and either blowing up and not reaching the vitals or penciling through. Just no dependability. Once you get to the heaviest 30 caliber and larger bullets you start to overcome that some. Smaller calibers and weights you take your chances. With a perfect shot they typically work. Perfect shots happen infrequently in hunting conditions and that is the biggest problem.

In my experience you need a bullet that will carry through the animal dependably with every shot at any angle you encounter any game animal no matter how big or small. This is particularly important to me since I hunt everything from little antelope and deer to moose, elk, grizzlies, buffalo, etc. I want one bullet I can dependably drive through anything at any angle at any range I want to shoot it. I want to set my load and drops up with that bullet and not have to change.

If I could change my bullet with every shot and every situation I could pick and choose the best for every application. But that is impossible with every hunting situation. So I take the best overall average.

For thin skinned deer and antelope you can get by with a lead core vld type bullet most times and have tremendous terminal performance on game as the bullet blows apart through the animal. Move up to elk and you will lose some animals while getting the same massive terminal performance as with deer/antelope on some shots.

With the solid copper bullets like Barnes and Cutting Edge you will never get the massive tissue destruction a lead core bullet provides as it blows up traveling through the animal. But it will kill the animal. It will always put two holes through the animal no matter how big or small the animal or what your shot angle is. It will always drive through the animal and reach the vitals making two holes for a big blood trail. However not with as much tissue destruction. But how much is enough to kill the animal? A bullet through the vitals with either style bullet will kill the animal guaranteed. The solid copper bullet will always drive through and reach the vitals with 100% guarantee on any animal. With lead core target/hunting type vld bullets there is no guarantee the bullet will not blow up or pencil hole. Just no dependability. That is why I like the solid copper bullets overall if I have to pick one to make all the shots on all the animals I hunt.

When I look at the terminal performance of a particular animal shot with a copper bullet could I say I could have had much more impressive trauma with a lead core bullet. Most times yes. But there is always enough trauma to kill the animal dead. The solid copper bullet does that with 100% dependability no matter what angle , how big or small the animal or what range I shoot it.

 

[barnesuser28]

Thanks and I understand hunters want to know so they can make good educated decisions. I just try to be very careful to present everything in good taste so as not to offend anyone.

As much money as I spend hunting all over north america every year I am going to use the absolute best products I can find to give me the best opportunity for success. The most accurate, highest bc/velocity ratio hunting bullet I can find that works. So far this bullet has done well for me with the best accuracy and highest bc/velocity ratio I can find. The extra velocity I am getting with this bullet compared to the lead core bullets I was using combined with a high bc per weight gives me great ballistics that outperform any other bullet I have tried.

I spent last summer and this summer testing these bullets in numerous rifles. I get better accuracy and ballistics with these bullets to the ranges I hunt than with anything else I have tried. That is why I have gone to this bullet in all my primary hunting rifles. With one shot I have killed everything I have shot at.

Basically it comes down to you can't have it all. Like everything else in life there is much grey area and you have to go with the averages. Copper bullets like these and the Barnes have much different effects on animals than lead core bullets. Tough, quality lead core hunting bullets have much better effects on game overall than VLD target/hunting type bullets however many choose the vld type for better ballistics to hit the game and hope for the best.

With lead core vld type target/hunting bullets there will be a high wounding loss percentage because of bullets not having dependable performance and either blowing up and not reaching the vitals or penciling through. Just no dependability. Once you get to the heaviest 30 caliber and larger bullets you start to overcome that some. Smaller calibers and weights you take your chances. With a perfect shot they typically work. Perfect shots happen infrequently in hunting conditions and that is the biggest problem.

In my experience you need a bullet that will carry through the animal dependably with every shot at any angle you encounter any game animal no matter how big or small. This is particularly important to me since I hunt everything from little antelope and deer to moose, elk, grizzlies, buffalo, etc. I want one bullet I can dependably drive through anything at any angle at any range I want to shoot it. I want to set my load and drops up with that bullet and not have to change.

If I could change my bullet with every shot and every situation I could pick and choose the best for every application. But that is impossible with every hunting situation. So I take the best overall average.

For thin skinned deer and antelope you can get by with a lead core vld type bullet most times and have tremendous terminal performance on game as the bullet blows apart through the animal. Move up to elk and you will lose some animals while getting the same massive terminal performance as with deer/antelope on some shots.

With the solid copper bullets like Barnes and Cutting Edge you will never get the massive tissue destruction a lead core bullet provides as it blows up traveling through the animal. But it will kill the animal. It will always put two holes through the animal no matter how big or small the animal or what your shot angle is. It will always drive through the animal and reach the vitals making two holes for a big blood trail. However not with as much tissue destruction. But how much is enough to kill the animal? A bullet through the vitals with either style bullet will kill the animal guaranteed. The solid copper bullet will always drive through and reach the vitals with 100% guarantee on any animal. With lead core target/hunting type vld bullets there is no guarantee the bullet will not blow up or pencil hole. Just no dependability. That is why I like the solid copper bullets overall if I have to pick one to make all the shots on all the animals I hunt.

When I look at the terminal performance of a particular animal shot with a copper bullet could I say I could have had much more impressive trauma with a lead core bullet. Most times yes. But there is always enough trauma to kill the animal dead. The solid copper bullet does that with 100% dependability no matter what angle , how big or small the animal or what range I shoot it.

The penetration of a solid copper bullet is biggest reason i choose Barnes, i want to know that if a jump a bull and i shoot him in the shoulder the bullet will still get to the vitals and possibly exit, rather than taking the chance of giveing the bull a flesh wound and having him run into the next county. Now rest assured if i decide i want to shoot a bull at 1500 yards and i have 17 pound gun that i am going to get set up with and wait for the elk i would use a Berger, but anything closer than that is going to have some chest pains after i send a 280 grain Barnes bullet his way.

 

[bigngreen]

LTLR, we hunt primarily elk and we kill a lot of elk, in one of the best units for killing elk in MT me and buddies killed 15% of the elk killed in that unit both during archery and rifle season, we kill a lot of elk and I cut a lot of elk! I used to shoot and every one I shot with used to use Barnes and I've taken a pile of elk with copper bullets from a lot of cals and I can without question say that I've seen far more elk lost shot with a copper bullet than a Berger, in fact the last guy that lost an elk with a Barnes is going to be over and we're getting is rifle fixed up with Bergers because he's flat tired of one of us having to shoot his elk or cutting it's throat. I personally have not lost an elk but I've came very close with Barnes on a few occasions, I've had two Barnes 168 TSX from a 300 WBY inside 500 yards fail to penetrate a cow elk shoulder, I've seen the same bullet also fail out of an 06 fail to penetrate an elk shoulder at 300 yards, we had a cow elk fall over dead after 30 min that we were positive it was not hit due to zero expansion with a double lung shot, last year one guy made a poor shot on a cow and it was lost but if he would have had a bullet that opened and shed weight it would have been meat in the freezer.
Last year I deliberately stuck a second bullet through the heavy front shoulder bone on a bull with a 165 VLD from my 270 WSM to see how it compared to the 168 Barnes I had shot, the VLD cleanly broke the heaviest bone, ribs then blew a baseball size hole in the front of the lungs and exited out the front of the of shoulder, the wound channel was just like the one that hit his liver an one lung. He could not hardly move from the first shot because the bullet opened up and shedded some weight right into his liver and back of one lung, had it been a solid copper bullet I would have faced some serious bad times in the timber! For me the Barnes offer me a more restrictive shot angle and shot placement and I don't like that, I want a margin for error and the VLD had given me that window.

The only reason I'm posting this in the thread is your throwing out some info that is just not what me and friends have seen in a lot of serious elk killing, our elk loss rate flat went to zero after moving to VLD's, period, and the wound channels through the animal have been so similar that is unreal! I hunted two years with Bergers in the chamber and Barnes in the mag just waiting for the Berger to leave me stranded, I honestly did not want them to work but it never happened and I have never been more confident in any bullet on elk at any range than I am now with the Berger or Matrix VLD's and I was a very hard sell on them.

I still buy loads of copper because I can't help it but I have yet to find one that out performed the VLD's I'm using so they have yet to get game time, I have yet to get a CE to shoot in rifles that have been easy to load a Berger for and I have yet to have a VLD be difficult to load and all my rifles shot copper bullet before and now thee best groups from all of them are with VLD's.

I'm not trying to crap on you because we seem to look for the same qualities in an elk bullet but we've found them in opposite bullets and had very good hunts and kills with them gun)

 

[Franklin]

Thanks for posting pics LTLR. After reviewing them it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that they are expanding little to none. Why do you think they are blowing right through everything with little entry-exit holes. If this is the type of performance you like, that is fine and dandy, but I wouldn't be pushing them on other members as the end all. As far as penciling through animals, the pics you posted is a prime example. I've shot several animals with vld's and never had one hardly move. For you to say people using them will have high loss because of not penetrating or penciling is just ********. Good luck using them, I just hope other people reading your stuff, have a little common sense.

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Many people here quit using bergers less than 210 grain 30 cals a few years ago on elk because of the high wound loss rate. smaller cals and lighter weight ones had problems on big animals. They get cursed a lot mostly in this area. I hope you have continued success with them. I do not like to see wounded game left for the bears.

I do not own stock in any company in the hunting business and makes no difference to me what a guy shoots. If you want to start a thread about berger kills please feel free to do so. I started this as an informative thread since there were so many questions about Cutting Edge bullets. I answered your questions and showed you the pictures. Thanks for participating.

 

[barnesuser28]

As far as penciling through animals, the pics you posted is a prime example. quote] Based on that exit hole and all the blood shot thats the biggest pencil ive ever seen.

 

[Franklin]

Well riley, that animal was shot with a 375/408imp. If ce bullets is what you want to shoot, have at it. I'm not saying they don't kill or are not accurate. I'm tired of the other inaccurate posts and the bracker,bracker,firecracker sisk boom bah,ce,ce rah,rah,rah. You're coming into your own, make of it what you want.

 

[bigngreen]

I do not like to see wounded game left for the bears.

Couldn't agree with you more on this point, we have the same goals!!!!! I do thank you for answering my questions, we have plenty of Berger kill threads no need to open yet another one!!!!

 

[Kiwi Greg]

Well riley, that animal was shot with a 375/408imp. If ce bullets is what you want to shoot, have at it. I'm not saying they don't kill or are not accurate. I'm tired of the other inaccurate posts and the bracker,bracker,firecracker sisk boom bah,ce,ce rah,rah,rah. You're coming into your own, make of it what you want.

No It wasn't shot with a 375/408 imp, it was shot by a smaller case of my design, nothing special, with 112 grains of powder behind a 400 CE @ 2920 fps

My 375DCM, 375/408 Imp will push the same bullet 200+ fps faster with 40+ grains more powder, I looking forward to putting some Deer on the ground with it

 

[Franklin]

Please elaborate...I'm comfused by your post.

Nevermind, my bad, just read your posts again. Thanks!!

 

[IdahoCTD]

The cheer leading continues and despite being told we'd see a recovered bullet we haven't. Just because a bullet passes through an animal and it kills the animal that doesn't mean it is performing as it should nor does it mean you won't lose a animal at some point. Shoot the **** things into phone books or water jugs so we can see a recovered bullet(s). I thought rocket scientist like to test things to no end. Hell being a rocket scientist you ought to scrounge up some ballistic gelatin and test it proper. Some super slow motion cameras would be cool as well to tell the real story.

 

[Kiwi Greg]

The cheer leading continues and despite being told we'd see a recovered bullet we haven't. Just because a bullet passes through an animal and it kills the animal that doesn't mean it is performing as it should nor does it mean you won't lose a animal at some point. Shoot the **** things into phone books or water jugs so we can see a recovered bullet(s). I thought rocket scientist like to test things to no end. Hell being a rocket scientist you ought to scrounge up some ballistic gelatin and test it proper. Some super slow motion cameras would be cool as well to tell the real story.

Pretty hard to stop a 400 grain pill.....

Here is a bit of one I recovered from my Daughters first Red Deer shot at 600 yards.

She hit him a little back & with the angle it penetrated his stomach.

He had 7 exit holes & I recovered this in front of his rear leg, it came out & went back into his leg.

It has split completely from tip to base, typical I'm told if they pass through the stomach.

 

[Pdvdh]

The cheer leading continues and despite being told we'd see a recovered bullet we haven't. Just because a bullet passes through an animal and it kills the animal that doesn't mean it is performing as it should nor does it mean you won't lose a animal at some point. Shoot the **** things into phone books or water jugs so we can see a recovered bullet(s). I thought rocket scientist like to test things to no end. Hell being a rocket scientist you ought to scrounge up some ballistic gelatin and test it proper. Some super slow motion cameras would be cool as well to tell the real story.

No one on this Forum owes you anything, let alone to demonstrate something to a standard of proof that you prescribe. Pretty remarkable that you seem to expect it.

I've shot maybe 6 animals with the 210 VLD from a .300 Win Mag and have already had two less than desirable experiences. These two experiences have both been described in detail in Threads on this Forum in years gone by. One on a black bear and one on a Dall ram.

Those that never have a VLD fail to expand, or have never had one disintegrate in the first 8-10 inches of penetration have been much more fortunate than I. When I read of dozens upon dozens of animals slayed with no poor performances from the VLDs, I begin to think I must be the unluckiest guy in the world when it comes to VLD performance on large game.

 

[bigngreen]

Pretty hard to stop a 400 grain pill.....

Here is a bit of one I recovered from my Daughters first Red Deer shot at 600 yards.

She hit him a little back & with the angle it penetrated his stomach.

He had 7 exit holes & I recovered this in front of his rear leg, it came out & went back into his leg.

It has split completely from tip to base, typical I'm told if they pass through the stomach.

Thanks for posting the pics, I think there is a similar picture on the CE web site of the bullets pealing, I don't think I've ever seen a bullet peel full length like that.