Cut rifling vs button rifling

[Pdvdh]

stress - then stress relieved

I'm curious - why the concern that stress is caused by the button rifling process itself if the stress is relieved before the button-rifled barrel leaves the manufacturer's facility? To my knowledge, all button rifled barrels are stress relieved after the rifling is set in the bore.

Does anyone know if button-rifled or cut-rifled barrels win more bench rest competitions? Seems like that would say something about one being more precise/accurate than the other. Maybe BountyHunter will chime in...

I'm pretty sure if we ordered as many barrels as Kirby does that we'd get barrels in 9 weeks from Lilja also. Such is business. I don't believe I've ever run across a small business owner that didn't take care of their larger volume customers first, no matter what the business sold or provided. Can you blame them? Nothing wrong with maximizing your profits, shy of committing any crimes.

Interesting read and thanks for your input Kirby. I almost felt like I was "cheating" when I read your post in this thread. A wealth of information based on a wealth of experience - all in a five minute read. Nice of you to share your experiences with those of us that may only shoot or own 10 or 20 rifles in our lifetime.

 

[Eaglet]

A wealth of information based on a wealth of experience - all in a five minute read. Nice of you to share your experiences with those of us that may only shoot or own 10 or 20 rifles in our lifetime.

That's what I told him about sharing all that great info. and he told me he talked too much! LOL

Kirby is a good guy... most of the time! LOL

 

[BountyHunter]

Ok here goes.

I am pretty sure that if you read the match reports that most of the barrel mftrs are in there. Lot of people like cut and lot like button.

As long as stress relieved, both shoot very well. Lot of matches in short range are won by shilen, krieger and Kostyshen for example.

Not many LR shooters use Kostysten and shilens for some reason but it is not due to lack of accuracy.

One key element to also keep in mind is that cut rifled can be fluted without having to relap and heat treat the barrel unlike button rifled.

Most button rifling mftrs will flute BEFORE final lapping and not after.

I have had good luck with both button and cut rifled. If the mftr gets bad steel then it does not matter which method is used. It is really their attention to detail and putting out a quality product.

Here is another example, we had a pair shooting the new 208 AMAXs this year and could not get decent groups to BR standard. they found out that the barrel that they were using was tight while the AMAX is always on the thick side. they switched to Hart barrels at a true .308 diameter and started winning again. Not bad barrel, just bad combo of bullet and barrel.

BH

 

[6BR4ME2]

Ok here goes.

I am pretty sure that if you read the match reports that most of the barrel mftrs are in there. Lot of people like cut and lot like button.

As long as stress relieved, both shoot very well. Lot of matches in short range are won by shilen, krieger and Kostyshen for example.

Not many long range shooters use Kostysten and shilens for some reason but it is not due to lack of accuracy.

One key element to also keep in mind is that cut rifled can be fluted without having to relap and heat treat the barrel unlike button rifled.

Most button rifling mftrs will flute BEFORE final lapping and not after.

I have had good luck with both button and cut rifled. If the mftr gets bad steel then it does not matter which method is used. It is really their attention to detail and putting out a quality product.

Here is another example, we had a pair shooting the new 208 AMAXs this year and could not get decent groups to BR standard. they found out that the barrel that they were using was tight while the AMAX is always on the thick side. they switched to Hart barrels at a true .308 diameter and started winning again. Not bad barrel, just bad combo of bullet and barrel.

BH

Good post Bounty....well said .... its more of a ford/chev and which combo works for you...Richard Schatz has a Lija that has a zillion rounds down it and it still shoots others do well with cut barrels ...
good post and BountHunter summed it up the best...

 

[Fiftydriver]

Lazylab,

That really suprises me about the shipping time you are getting from Dan, Even before I had my shop open I was getting the same shipping time as I do now.

There was a period last year when they moved over to a new shop for more space that some barrel ordered took a bit longer but that has been the only real delay I have seen on many years ordering from Dan.

As far as bore diameter, yes, Lilja barrels tend to run pretty tight compared to other barrel brands, seems to be that way across the board but the 4 groove barrels seem to be the tightest from Lilja. Also, I have noticed that the large 338 barrels run very tight as well which will prevent you from getting quite as high a velocity as other brands but accuracy has always proven VERY impressive. But I would certainly agree with you, these barrels do run tight but they are built to true BR standards and that is the reason.

You are right, it is not fair to compare lower end button rifled barrels to upper end cut rifled barrels. YOu are also correct in that there are no popular low end cut rifled barrels. That, again was my point, hard to compare one grade of any product that is held to lower standards to another product that is held to a much higher level of standards.

But if you compare equal quality in both designs, there will be little if any real difference to talk about.

As far as the 375 bullets, still waiting on dies to get in.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Fiftydriver]

jwp475,

So from your own words, in the finished product, there is no difference between the two of them, correct???

If a button pulled barrel is stress relieved properly, why is a cut rifled barrel measureably better?

Just curious to the basis of your opinion.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[steve smith]

Ok here goes.

One key element to also keep in mind is that cut rifled can be fluted without having to relap and heat treat the barrel unlike button rifled.

BH

BH

Not to be knit-picky but I'd like to know where or from whom you recieved that bit of info!


That one is a new one on me!
After being stress relieved, the barrel should be, for all intended purposes, relieved of all stresses. Meaning that you can machine this material without it moving or changing its dimentions,due to the stresses being released.

 

[Boss Hoss]

I think that BH needs to expand on his answer a bit but it is true that if done properly and I say properly it is possible. I do it all of the time on competition tubes and sporters -- my Smith has set world records on barrels fluted after chambering and shot himself into the HOF. It can be done but it is not as simple as BH said it is.

 

[steve smith]

Boss

My point is, that after the material has been stress relieved there are no stresses left to speak of. The material can then be cut without it deforming due to stresses imparted into it during rifleing. Running a ball nose end mill down the length of the barrel will not impart any stress to the steel, (no re-stress relieving needed), and since the material has already been stress relieved, cutting more matterial out will not change the internal dimensions of the tube, (no re-lapping needed). Unless you're pushing your tooling so hard that you heat up the material to the point of work hardening it as you go, there should be no need to re-lap or re-heat treat.

 

[Boss Hoss]

Boss

My point is, that after the material has been stress relieved there are no stresses left to speak of. The material can then be cut without it deforming due to stresses imparted into it during rifleing. Running a ball nose end mill down the length of the barrel will not impart any stress to the steel, (no re-stress relieving needed), and since the material has already been stress relieved, cutting more matterial out will not change the internal dimensions of the tube, (no re-lapping needed). Unless you're pushing your tooling so hard that you heat up the material to the point of work hardening it as you go, there should be no need to re-lap or re-heat treat.

Hmmmm I know of several barrel makers that will disagree with you and in fact void any responsibility for the tube if you flute it period. That being said I use cut tubes and my Smith knows what he is doing so I don't worry about it. As it is may have to indicate 2 or 3 barrels to find one to chamber(competition rifles only) then flute the devil out of them!!

 

[BountyHunter]

Most button rifle mftrs will tell you that fluting when removing the metal will change the internal bore dimensions for button rifled barrels in particular and that is why they recommend flute and then final lap.

Bill Calfee the premier 22lr smith has been writing a series of articles on "slugging" rifle barrels before chambering to determine high and low spots in the bore and to determine which end should be the muzzle and which should be the chamber. Bill also wrote about his experience attaching tuners and how he could feel barrel restrictions on a clamp on tuner if put on too tight. Bill wrote about being able to feel where the flutes started and where they ended. Tim North of Broughton barrels says he can do the same if you flute one of his barrels after heat treating.

In fact, I got into a weight issue with a Broughton barrel and had to have it fluted. We sent it back to Tim and he relapped it and reheated treated it. He said that he could clearly feel the start of the fluting.

Now as for Speedy winning HOF with fluted button rifled barrels, all I can say that is the clear minority opinion.

Take the best advice and choose to follow or ignore. One way will cause no harm for sure and the other way might bite you big time in the butt, your call. Barrel slugging by many have proven dimensional changes in the bores and at muzzles.

BH

 

[Boss Hoss]

Most button rifle mftrs will tell you that fluting when removing the metal will change the internal bore dimensions for button rifled barrels in particular and that is why they recommend flute and then final lap.

Bill Calfee the premier 22lr smith has been writing a series of articles on "slugging" rifle barrels before chambering to determine high and low spots in the bore and to determine which end should be the muzzle and which should be the chamber. Bill also wrote about his experience attaching tuners and how he could feel barrel restrictions on a clamp on tuner if put on too tight. Bill wrote about being able to feel where the flutes started and where they ended. Tim North of Broughton barrels says he can do the same if you flute one of his barrels after heat treating.

In fact, I got into a weight issue with a Broughton barrel and had to have it fluted. We sent it back to Tim and he relapped it and reheated treated it. He said that he could clearly feel the start of the fluting.

Now as for Speedy winning HOF with fluted button rifled barrels, all I can say that is the clear minority opinion.

Take the best advice and choose to follow or ignore. One way will cause no harm for sure and the other way might bite you big time in the butt, your call. Barrel slugging by many have proven dimensional changes in the bores and at muzzles.

BH

Oh he set World Records with a fluted barrels as well but your point is understood and I agree but with someone who knows what they are doing the risk is shall we say mitigated to a certain degree. I use only cut tubes now and they are all fluted and if someone else were chambering my tubes then they would be fluted by Krieger before I got them.

 

[jwp475]

jwp475,

So from your own words, in the finished product, there is no difference between the two of them, correct???

If a button pulled barrel is stress relieved properly, why is a cut rifled barrel measureably better?

Just curious to the basis of your opinion.

Kirby Allen(50)

I don't believe that I said that one was measureable better than the other I said that I prefered cut rifleing (Some prefer Chevy,some prefer Ford and others prefer Dodge)
I do not believe that cut rifleing or button rifling has been proven to be more accurate than the other.....Either on can be very accurate, just given a choice I would rather spend my money on a cut rifled barrel...I own a very accurate 300 Win with a button barrel, therfore I know that button rifling is can produce very accurate barrels.........

Here are my post on the subject;


"Button rifleing builds stresses in into the barrel and cut rifleing does not...I prefer cut rifleing"




"Lab, button rifling does indeed induce stress in to a barrel,anytime material is removed by force such as with button rifling there is stress induced...No one has said that a button barrel was not accurate...Double stress relieving may remove these stress,but a cut rifled barrel doesn't have them to begin with"....

 

[Rimfire]

Most button rifle mftrs will tell you that fluting when removing the metal will change the internal bore dimensions for button rifled barrels in particular and that is why they recommend flute and then final lap.

Bill Calfee the premier 22lr smith has been writing a series of articles on "slugging" rifle barrels before chambering to determine high and low spots in the bore and to determine which end should be the muzzle and which should be the chamber. Bill also wrote about his experience attaching tuners and how he could feel barrel restrictions on a clamp on tuner if put on too tight. Bill wrote about being able to feel where the flutes started and where they ended. Tim North of Broughton barrels says he can do the same if you flute one of his barrels after heat treating.

In fact, I got into a weight issue with a Broughton barrel and had to have it fluted. We sent it back to Tim and he relapped it and reheated treated it. He said that he could clearly feel the start of the fluting.

Now as for Speedy winning HOF with fluted button rifled barrels, all I can say that is the clear minority opinion.

Take the best advice and choose to follow or ignore. One way will cause no harm for sure and the other way might bite you big time in the butt, your call. Barrel slugging by many have proven dimensional changes in the bores and at muzzles.

BH

This about sums it up, Why chance it? If you use a buttoned barrel why not listen to a guy like Tim North who only does barrels. If he says he can feel it, and final laps and heat treats after fluting, It's good enough for me. This is a guy who cares about his customers. His barrels are double treated at the mill and triple treated by him.

Another thing to think about I keep hearing button pulled, How do you guys feel about button pushed?