Button vs cut rifle barrels

[orkan]

The only way to respond to a question like this, is with evidence. The answer is ultra difficult to quantify, and takes more than a hundred thousand rounds fired and several hundred barrels at minimum to even begin to answer correctly.

My answer: A bad barrel is a bad barrel. A good barrel is a good barrel. Every rifling method can produce good barrels, and bad barrels. The competency and quality control of the manufacturer determines whether their method produces good results or not. Buttoned barrels will consistently shoot as good as any cut rifled barrels can.

Some proof, all with button barrels:










https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8e1UZ6w-lg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O74bzzM1Htw

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxaVgR3LQPa/?igshid=MjJkMmIyYzQxYw==


So in summation, button barrels from Benchmark barrels shoot quite small. Every one of them I've ever received from 22LR to .375 Cheytac. While I can't find the video's of back when I was doing cheytac stuff, you can at least see video evidence with your own eyes from 22LR to 7mm Norma Mag Improved.

Benchmark does cut rifled barrels now too. I have cut rifled barrels through here from many makers. These button cut barrels will shoot with ANY cut rifled barrel. Rifling configurations of all across the spectrum. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 8 groove, .17cal to .375cal, every twist imaginable, every flute configuration imaginable, countless different contours. They ALL shoot small. This isn't opinion. This is fact. So it's not about what... it's about who, and how.

Some companies can put out a good barrel 99.9% of the time, while others struggle with quality control. You buy your ticket and take your ride, and it is what it is. If you're happy, pound away. If you're not, spin up a new one and rock on.

This isn't complicated.

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[A A Ron]

My thinking has been a lot of things, but not sure "messed up" is accurate or precise. Just in case I am messed up I will clarify.

I think an honest and consistent .5 moa is very accurate and demanding of a long hunting rifle. Very few hunting rifles and shooters can honestly achieve .5 moa. Lots of people can shoot 3 round .25 moa in small samples. Putting 20 or 30 inside .5 moa in a single session without heat opening the group is what I'm referring to.

Back to the point, are the best 100 shooters in F class, bench rest, long range ect.. using cut or button rifled? I don't know the answer, but I have a guess the stress from any process matters. Tikka claims their hammer forged process is the best. Is Tikkas hammer forging the same as FNs machine barrels? I doubt it. Is Seekins button rifling process the same as company x,y, or z. I doubt it?

Are Seekins button rifled barrels capable of my expectations, like I have experienced with Bartlein cut rifled?

 

[Monteria]

I may be very wrong here, because my sample size is small, but... I've come to think of barrels like working dogs, which I have a lot more experience with.

The manufacturer (breed) may indicate what basic attributes to expect, but every individual barrel (dog) has to be judged on its own merit.

And the gunsmith (handler) has an influence too.

 

[Justice1327]

Could you explain why that would make a difference?

Fluting a BR barrel will change the internal bore dimensions. it can be done, but you have to relap it and stress relief it again. I Asked Lilja, Benchmark, Bartlein, and Brux.
It is easier/quicker/less costly to make a BR barrel over a CR barrel…mainly due to time and machinery. However, both have and continue to set records.

 

[orkan]

Are Seekins button rifled barrels capable of my expectations, like I have experienced with Bartlein cut rifled?

Sorry, but are you certain that seekins is actually producing the barrels themselves? Are you sure they are not getting blanks from someone, and then "making" them into a finished part?

I don't know for a fact, but I am not aware they are actually in possession of a gun drill and rifling machine.

Either way, if you want to know what seekins barrels are capable of, I would accept nothing other than first hand accounts as actual evidence.


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[VinceMule]

Orkan, thank you for all your input!

 

[A A Ron]

The blanks are made by Rock Creek, but Seekins rifles them in Lewiston.

 

[bluedog69]

Fluting a BR barrel will change the internal bore dimensions. it can be done, but you have to relap it and stress relief it again. I Asked Lilja, Benchmark, Bartlein, and Brux.
It is easier/quicker/less costly to make a BR barrel over a CR barrel…mainly due to time and machinery. However, both have and continue to set records.

So it was my understanding from Lilja's website that they button rifle then put the barrels back in the furnace to relieve any stress.
I have always wondered if fluting any type of barrel put stresses into it. If the fluting is kept cool through coolant on the barrel during the fluting I could see there being no internal stresses being introduced.

If a button rifled barrel was full of internal stress, and then it was fluted, I can see that definitely letting the internal stresses from being rifled change the shape of the barrel due to fluting.(fluting making thin weak spots that would be manipulated by the thicker higher stessed parts)
But, If a barrel is rifled and then put through the furnace to relieve all the stress, how would fluting a BR barrel be any different than any other
barrel?

I don't know the answers for sure, but I am always eager to learn!

 

[A A Ron]

If the link works it is about Seekins processes.

To be clear I have heard great things about Seekins. I have even went on a factory tour. I am just asking about cut rifle vs button rifle. It appears there can be very good button rifled barrels. Thanks to all who have contributed.

 

[mavrickarcher]

I have one of the Rock Creek button rifle barrels on a 243 from a group buy a few years ago on Snipers Hide. The best "I" can get it to shoot is .42 for 5 shots. Can it do better probably!!

 

[A A Ron]

According to this article the top shooters voted with their wallets for cut rifled barrels.

Best Rifle Barrel – What The Pros Use

Barrels are deceptively simple, yet crucial to the precision required for long-range shooting. I onc...

precisionrifleblog.com

 

[COBrad]

According to this article the top shooters voted with their wallets for cut rifled barrels.

Best Rifle Barrel – What The Pros Use

Barrels are deceptively simple, yet crucial to the precision required for long-range shooting. I onc...

precisionrifleblog.com

I recently read this article as well. Krieger, Satern and Wilson barrels have been on my most accurate rifles with Bartlien right behind them. I've had several other barrels that shot almost as well. Problem now is I don't want to wait a year or more for a barrel so referred to this article for ideas. Probably ordering a K&P for a .22 Creedmore project that they're saying 12 weeks for. I've read good reviews on them. Krieger Saturn and Bartlien are CR, Wilson BR I've had two from each manufacturer except 1 from Satern. They all shot sub half moa routinely.

 

[HandgunHTR]

As sable tireur pointed out, the largest variable in all of this is the shooter themselves. A A Ron, are you capable of shooting .5 MOA every time? Is this for a hunting rig? If the answer to the first one is, yes, GREAT! You are a better marksman than most. If the answer to the second question is also, yes, then I think you are chasing your tail. Unless you are only planning on hunting at extreme long range (800+), .5 MOA is a bit unnecessary.


I think that in regards to fluting barrels, the same can be said as it is with rifling. The tools and process that we have today are much better than they used to be and the issues with overstressing the barrels are not as prevalent as they once were. I don't own an air gauge or a way of measuring, but I have had 3 different button-rifled barrels fluted and they all shoot exactly the same as they did before I had them fluted. Contours on them are, Rem-Varmint, Light Palma, and #4 sporter.

 

[bluedog69]

According to this article the top shooters voted with their wallets for cut rifled barrels.

Best Rifle Barrel – What The Pros Use

Barrels are deceptively simple, yet crucial to the precision required for long-range shooting. I onc...

precisionrifleblog.com

So is Rock Creek the best barrels? None of their shooters finished low. Is that how to read the chart? Or at least half their shooters finished in the top 50.