Couple questions on bullet weld

[Teri Anne]

Then could you please explain the pic in post #10. I believe that is what the op was asking about.
Thanks

Yes, If you look at the picture and the comments the bullets were pulled,not fired. You will also see blatant evidence of corrosion even inside of the neck and beyond the back of the broken off area. If these rounds had been fired there would have been no issue with them firing and not doing any further damage to the case other than the internal corrosion. Pull trigger and the rifle would have gone boom and nothing out of the ordinary happening. However when fired the pressure comes from the back of the bullet and the case neck supported by the chamber. When pulled the pressure comes from the front and with the brass already corroded the case is weakened and allowing the separation. There was no case welding here, simply corrosion caused by improper loading procedures and storage.

 

[WildRose]

From what I have read, bullet weld can happen to ammo which sits for a long time. I'm not new to reloading or shooting but when it comes to bullet weld I have read a lot of conflicting info so I have a few questions as follows:

1. Does it only cause inconsistencies or can it actually be dangerous?
2. I have read neck lubing can help prevent this (graphite as an example). Does it PREVENT it completely or can it still occur?
3. How many rounds and for how long do you keep loaded for your hunting rigs? Reason I ask is I like to have a minimum of 20 rounds going into a hunting season. This gives me some sighters to make sure my rifle is on and then 10 or more for actually hunting. I typically do not have reloads sitting around longer than 6 months and most often only a couple months but I do have some backup rifles for hunting which may not get shot for years. I like to keep rounds loaded but not if bullet weld is possible.

Bullet weld can actually occur due to drying lubricants. I've never seen it cause a catastrophic failure but it would certainly cause some inconsistent velocity issues.

Most manuals tell us not to lubricate bullets or necks at all. If you're going to I would definitely make sure I was using some sort of dry lubricant like HBN, graphite, or a lubricating wax that is non drying.

Years ago a lot of the bullets we bought had some sort of very fine lubricant on them. You couldn't see it but you could feel it handling them. I have no clue what it was.

 

[MagnumManiac]

There seems to be a lot of misinformation about this subject. Bullets do not become welded to the cases. Welding is a heat process and unless you physically weld the bullet to the case it's impossible to happen. It is however possible to have corrosion form between the bullet and case, but I have never seen any issues with the round firing, but fouling a barrel, yes they will. I had, and still have some old military ammo dating back to late WWII, Korea and Viet Nam. If kept cool and dry they function like the day they were new. Now to answer your quetions.
1 - Since it does not really happen in real life, no to the inconsistencies and of no real danger if like anything else fired from a firearm in good condition.
2. - Depending on what you lube the necks with can cause corrosion. Remember we are dealing with dissimilar metals here, brass and copper.
3 - Bullet weld only exists in the minds of some. As mentioned earlier, I have shot ammo that is over 78 years old without any problems. Ammo only a few months or even years will never be an issue.

Yes, I do know that there are many out there that will argue this point, To each their own and believe whatever you want. Bullets do not weld themselves to cases.

You are completely wrong.
It is called "Cold Weld" for a reason.
It is the electrolysis forming a residue that locks the two metals together.
As a normal round fires, the neck, being thinner, expands first. Even .00001" of expansion is enough to release the "grip" on the bullet.
However, in this instance, the grip on the bullet is a heck of a lot harder to break and can and does cause pressure to spike if it is already at or near max.
Many instances of this phenomenon have a corrosion inside the case. Many bullets pulled in this condition also have corrosion around the base of the bullet and on the insides of the brass. Look up electrolysis regarding lead and aluminium and tell me that this is not similar.

Cheers.

 

[Hard rock]

Bullet weld can actually occur due to drying lubricants. I've never seen it cause a catastrophic failure but it would certainly cause some inconsistent velocity issues.

Most manuals tell us not to lubricate bullets or necks at all. If you're going to I would definitely make sure I was using some sort of dry lubricant like HBN, graphite, or a lubricating wax that is non drying.

Years ago a lot of the bullets we bought had some sort of very fine lubricant on them. You couldn't see it but you could feel it handling them. I have no clue what it was.

I personally wouldn't like too find out the hard way . If you have corrosion between the bullet and case neck , you probably have compromised the neck clearance in the chamber too safely release the bullet ,due too swelling in the case neck from corrosion. Question is what is the clearance after the case has corroded swelled and welded and too what extent . I wouldn't consider any corroded welded or both safe . I also would think a high pressure cartridge too begin with would have more potential for a blow up , example 50 cal . There is a YouTube video that shows a blow up that may have been exactly what is being described here with a 50 cal .

 

[WildRose]

I personally wouldn't like too find out the hard way . If you have corrosion between the bullet and case neck , you probably have compromised the neck clearance in the chamber too safely release the bullet ,due too swelling in the case neck from corrosion. Question is what is the clearance after the case has corroded swelled and welded and too what extent . I wouldn't consider any corroded welded or both safe . I also would think a high pressure cartridge too begin with would have more potential for a blow up , example 50 cal . There is a YouTube video that shows a blow up that may have been exactly what is being described here with a 50 cal .

If you see obvious signs of corrosion it's time to trash the ammo. Believe it or not putting different kinds of oils on the finished rounds to help prevent corrosion and staining can actually accelerate it.

Dry and clean all the way for me.

 

[WildRose]

There is a YouTube video that shows a blow up that may have been exactly what is being described here with a 50 cal

Could be. Properly stored though ammo can last decades. The first few years I was in the service we were still shooting up ammo and ordnance that had been produced in the forties and fifties.

Clean, dry, store in a cool environment and you eliminate most problems related to storage.

 

[Tulsa Reiner]

I've never heard of it on factory ammo .

So what is their secret? Can anyone find out?

 

[WildRose]

So what is their secret? Can anyone find out?

Keeping both brass and bullets totally dry and free of oil.

 

[Veteran]

I recently had a flat...it took 2.5 hrs to change because of cold metal welding or electrolysis of two different metals.

The aluminum rims cold welded or corroded or ekectrolized to the steel hubs.....

No way could pull the tire off.
Shops have to use sledges up in the air.

A paaserby had a ratchet. We tied it around the tire and tied the ratchet to his towing hitch.

We were literally dragging his vehicle toward my car with the ratchet, still tire would not break loose.

Finally he got mad and jumped up and down on the tie strip and it jostled the tire loose breaking that corrosion or electrolosis seal.

Big problems when dissimilar metals cold weld together in any application

 

[jimbires]

So what is their secret? Can anyone find out?

I'm not sure what they are doing .


I switched up a couple things , and I haven't had a bad case of this since . I sometimes notice a slight "pop" when I seat deeper , before pulling , but that's it . I changed lube and the way I lube. I anneal every time and catch the brass in a dry pan , instead of a damp towel . brush out the necks well , with a stiff bronze brush , after annealing . only use powder graphite inside the necks. dip the bullet base in graphite before seating .

 

[Hugnot]

Cold Welding

Cold welding - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Cold welding as defined ^ does not happen with ammo. Bullets may be stuck in necks, but "cold welding" did not make it happen. I have never seen factory ammo loaded with new clean brass have stuck bullets; the same for hand loading with new brass. Any debris like powder residue or lubricants will prevent the true "cold welding" phenomena from happening by introducing dissimilar atoms between two surfaces that are sort of different (copper jacket alloy & brass). The bullet and cartridge neck materials would be dissimilar enough, and the phenomena is one that occurs in a vacuum like in satellites and stuff flying in space having like materials in contact. Cold welding does not require melting, just contact between like metals, apparently the tiny little atoms pickup on each other upon contact in a vacuum with no strange atoms intervening.

Bullets do get stuck in cases, my guess is that corrosion makes it happen, like nitrate salts in powder residues. When pulling bullets that have been seated for months in cases having dirty inner necks it is a good idea to seat the bullets down a tiny bit like .010 to break any corrosion caused bond. If stuck, a POP may be heard. Then extract the bullet. Stuck bullets are sort of like variations in neck tension.

I like to chuck the right sized nylon brush in my cordless and spin/clean the debris (powder residues, nitrates, lead, & whatever) from the insides of necks. I lube the insides of necks with graphite lock lube when using an expander. This helps to prevent neck run-out.

I have had the neck portion of a case stuck inside a chamber after firing. My guess is the bullet was bonded to the inside of a dirty neck by corrosion and the same corrosion weakened the brass case. Possibly there may be some electrolysis going on between mostly copper bullet and the 70% copper, 30% zinc brass with the nitrate salts containing potassium. Copper & zinc are sort of similar elements. "Cold welding" is not electrolysis.

Stuck bullets are real bad for accuracy. Stuff like ^ interests me!

 

[WildRose]

I recently had a flat...it took 2.5 hrs to change because of cold metal welding or electrolysis of two different metals.

The aluminum rims cold welded or corroded or ekectrolized to the steel hubs.....

No way could pull the tire off.
Shops have to use sledges up in the air.

A paaserby had a ratchet. We tied it around the tire and tied the ratchet to his towing hitch.

We were literally dragging his vehicle toward my car with the ratchet, still tire would not break loose.

Finally he got mad and jumped up and down on the tie strip and it jostled the tire loose breaking that corrosion or electrolosis seal.

Big problems when dissimilar metals cold weld together in any application

That's a common problem with steel and aluminum, it doesn't happen with Brass and Copper.

If one has "bullet weld" it's due to a contaminate such as case lube or petroleum based lubes.

If everything is clean and dry when you seat the bullet you should never have a problem. I found 200 rounds of .220 Swift I'd loaded back around 2000 a few weeks ago and it was still in pristine condition and shoots as well as it did when I loaded it.

As I mentioned, in the military we shot ammo and ordinance that was over forty years old with no problem.

Keep it dry and keep the petroleum products and solvents away from your ammo and it will be fine.

 

[1mechanic]

Brass and copper are similar metals there will have to be a medium of sorts like moisture and salt from finger tips slightly covering the bottom of the bullet in loading. Like WildRose has said if it's clean and dry when loading you should not have a problem.

 

[Sage70]

Being a long time reloader I have always thought bullet weld problems were increased by too much neck tension because of hard brass, an expander ball that is too small in diameter and dirty case necks. For me this problem is solved by annealing the case necks to keep them soft and by using a mandrel which is .002 less than bullet diameter to complete the sizing of the inside diameter of the case neck. After sizing and trimming I remove all lubricant from the sized cases by washing them. Bullets seating is done with just a slight pressure of the thumb on the press handle and neck tension is consistent with all bullets seated. I know that serious long range reloaders have a more advanced method than this but as a hunter this method works for me.