Joe King
Well-Known Member
Well you know the important part, it kills elk 
Comparing the Berger 210 VLD to the 215 Hybrid
- Thread starter Broz
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captacademy
Well-Known Member
Congrats again, and thanks for the detailed photo's of the damage done by the bullet and the elk.
elkaholic
Well-Known Member
Well, I got a little more data from these bullets. In the beginning I was under the impression they would not expand well due to the thicker jackets. I no longer feel that way at all. In fact it seems to me they expand more. Today I stuck one in a Bull Elk at 636 yards. Behind the shoulder and catching a rib going in. The bull ws dispatched very quickly and took maybe two 2 steps. The entrance hole was like all the others (.308) but after passing through the hide, about an inch side meat, then getting the rib going in it was really expanded. Although it destroyed the lungs and heart it didnt exit. I spent some time looking through the mountain of damaged entrals but didn't recover the bullet. Might have run out with the 30 gallons of strawberry jello. I don't know?? But I did take pics of the entrance, outside and inside, and the lungs and heart. So, I guess at 636 yards, with an impact velocity of 2341 and 2616 ft lbs of energy the expansion is more than I desire in a perfect world. But no two shots are ever the same. The next could produce an exit. I will not degrade the bullet as it killed the elk like lightning. But I am beginning to think this bullet is better siuted for longer shots where it would expand less. We have all said it before, no bullet is perfect in all areas. Some are better up close. Some for longer distances. I am a long range hunter, so I feel this bullet will work for me. But, draw your own conclusions. Here are the pics.
Placement:
Entrance outside:
Entrance inside:
Lungs:
Heart:
Hero pic:
Congrats on a really nice bull Jeff! It can't be an elk though because there is no brush up to your eyeballs
...........Richshortpants
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2011
- Messages
- 619
Great lookin bull Jeff and nice shot as usual. Like you said each shot is different so don't over think this one to much. It's going to take a lot of feedback to draw a substantial conclusion. Somebody in this thread mentioned a one shot drop on a bear at 90 yds. with good results. I just had a client tell me he would not ever use accubonds on an elk ever again because a couple of petals broke off on the bullet recovered from his bull. It was still pretty heavy in my hand and had hit bone and recovered in the offside shoulder. I didn't think it was bad results but I think he thinks they should always come out looking perfect. In the real world mornings perfect. My point is along the way there will be guys who try this bullet and for some reason they won't be happy with it and a new topic will get started about how terrible the 215's are. I'm not suggesting these bullets won't fail somebody at sometime but rather just want people to keep an open mind and draw their own conclusions. Sorry for the rant and again great bull Jeff!!!
Congrats ,great Bull
BULLBLASTER
Well-Known Member
Broz
Well-Known Member
Ok, More terminal data for the 215 Bergers. Today I was hunting with a friend and he was using my 300 win with 215 Berger Hybrids to fill his bull tag. We crawled in thick fog to get to the herd. He was ready to fill his tag as he only has a few more days to hunt. He picked this bull and I ranged it and dialed the scope. It was at 200 yards and pretty much broadside. I told him to shoot for the crease behind the shoulder 1/2 way up the bull. He did an EXCELLENT job with the placement. Here are the results on bull #2 with the 215 Berger Hybrid.
Impac velocity= 2817 fps
Energy = 3790 ft Lbs ( Holy Crap!!)
Penetration = 15"+ ( not sure how far they bullet went into the far shoulder
but we hope to find this out tomorrow.)
Upon inpact I watched the hide ripple about a foot around the impact point. The bull turned 180* and stood there all hunched up with his back arched. I told my friend to chamber another round and get back on him. Within a couple seconds the bull was wobbling at the rear and it was becoming hard for him to stad up. Then his rear dropped and he rolled a few times and slid about 50 yards down the steep grassy hill. He was done and never kicked once after he fell.
Here are the photos:
What we found walking up showing where he slid down the hill. Notice there are no kick marks. He was dead when he hit the ground.
Shot placement. Perfect centered for height and right in the crease behind the shoulder.
Close up of Entrance hole at 200 yards. .308" size again.
Etrance hole between ribs from the inside of the chest cavity.
Exit hole from inside chest cavity between ribs. Note a few fragment holes also but a large remaining piece of the bullet exited the broiler room.
Chest cavity pic showing both the entrance and exit.
Destroyed vitals. Lungs had a huge wound channel and and top of heart had a huge hole as well. Note, the hole in the heart actually has chunks of lung drug into it.
My buddy with his bull. He did an excellent job on the trigger. He worked fast in poor conditions and placement was spot on for a quick one shot kill.
Some thoughts I have this evening. I am not trying to sell this bullet to anyone, or any Berger for that matter. Draw your own conclusions for what you choose to use. But darn, they sure kill fast and quickly for me, and at many different distances. As you can see for yourself my posts are real and as informative as I can be. Something to think about, if you are having problems with any bullet. Are you doing all you can to place them where they need to go? Just a thought?
Comparing the results from this bull and the one I took with the 215 Berger:
Mine got a rib dead center going in and expanded more, thus penetration was less. I feel any bullet would do this same thing as well. This one missed ribs going in and exiting. But pentration was awesome in my book. It was a huge surprise for me when I seen it made it out of the chest cavity. This was a relatively close shot with pretty high velocity. So I was very pleased with the exit and the quick kill. Meat damage was very minimal. I feel the loss will be low.
I believe the bullet is still in the far shoulder. We are taking this bull to the processor in the morning. If I can get them to do it for me we will look for the bullet. But this will greatly depend on their work load at the time. If I get it I will post pics.
My testing is not conclusive yet. But my confidence in the 215 Berger is growing with each DRT shot. There will be more this season so stand by.
Jeff
Impac velocity= 2817 fps
Energy = 3790 ft Lbs ( Holy Crap!!)
Penetration = 15"+ ( not sure how far they bullet went into the far shoulder
but we hope to find this out tomorrow.)
Upon inpact I watched the hide ripple about a foot around the impact point. The bull turned 180* and stood there all hunched up with his back arched. I told my friend to chamber another round and get back on him. Within a couple seconds the bull was wobbling at the rear and it was becoming hard for him to stad up. Then his rear dropped and he rolled a few times and slid about 50 yards down the steep grassy hill. He was done and never kicked once after he fell.
Here are the photos:
What we found walking up showing where he slid down the hill. Notice there are no kick marks. He was dead when he hit the ground.
Shot placement. Perfect centered for height and right in the crease behind the shoulder.
Close up of Entrance hole at 200 yards. .308" size again.
Etrance hole between ribs from the inside of the chest cavity.
Exit hole from inside chest cavity between ribs. Note a few fragment holes also but a large remaining piece of the bullet exited the broiler room.
Chest cavity pic showing both the entrance and exit.
Destroyed vitals. Lungs had a huge wound channel and and top of heart had a huge hole as well. Note, the hole in the heart actually has chunks of lung drug into it.
My buddy with his bull. He did an excellent job on the trigger. He worked fast in poor conditions and placement was spot on for a quick one shot kill.
Some thoughts I have this evening. I am not trying to sell this bullet to anyone, or any Berger for that matter. Draw your own conclusions for what you choose to use. But darn, they sure kill fast and quickly for me, and at many different distances. As you can see for yourself my posts are real and as informative as I can be. Something to think about, if you are having problems with any bullet. Are you doing all you can to place them where they need to go? Just a thought?
Comparing the results from this bull and the one I took with the 215 Berger:
Mine got a rib dead center going in and expanded more, thus penetration was less. I feel any bullet would do this same thing as well. This one missed ribs going in and exiting. But pentration was awesome in my book. It was a huge surprise for me when I seen it made it out of the chest cavity. This was a relatively close shot with pretty high velocity. So I was very pleased with the exit and the quick kill. Meat damage was very minimal. I feel the loss will be low.
I believe the bullet is still in the far shoulder. We are taking this bull to the processor in the morning. If I can get them to do it for me we will look for the bullet. But this will greatly depend on their work load at the time. If I get it I will post pics.
My testing is not conclusive yet. But my confidence in the 215 Berger is growing with each DRT shot. There will be more this season so stand by.
Jeff
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Dang he pin wheeled it!! I hope some of the younger guys on the forum take note of that shot placement gun)
The 215 seems to be showing some good signs for a good long range hunting bullet, looks to me like it's opening just a touch more aggressive than the 210 maybe?
The 215 seems to be showing some good signs for a good long range hunting bullet, looks to me like it's opening just a touch more aggressive than the 210 maybe?
Broz
Well-Known Member
Me too, that is the placement you should strive for, and be proud of when you get it right.
I feel the same about the expasion. Even thought the 215 has a thicker jacket it seems so far they are expanding more than the 210 H-VLD. That could be due to the fact the 215 has the larger air pocket in the tip.
I know some of Rich's tests showed loss of this tip in water. But I am not sure it matters once the bullet is in the animal. The entrances of every shot has been .308". And once inside they seem to be doing their job for a quick dispatch. Even at 1285 yards and the low velocity on that goat the expansion showed good. More testing soon on a few more elk and deer and we will see if the results remain good.
Jeff
elkaholic
Well-Known Member
Well, you are piling up the meat, that's for sure! Results look pretty good so far. The tests I ran were to check "minimum" expansion! The tips were blowing off at 2200' or less with no further expansion of the bullet. I will really be interested to see the results of a "long range" hit at 2200' or less. Keep up the good work........Rich
Broz
Well-Known Member
Rich, did you miss he 3 shots and pics of the exits on antelope at under 2200 fps? Earlier in this thread we took antelope at,
802 with an impact velocity of 2191 fps.
1005 with an impact velocity of about 1937 fps
and the one at 1285 yards with an impact velocity of about 1677 fps.
All have expanded well. In fact, I like what they are doing below 2200 better than above for what I like to see.
Jeff
shortpants
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2011
- Messages
- 619
Whackin and Stackin!!!
elkaholic
Well-Known Member
I looked now! Pretty impressive exit wounds........Rich
Eric Stecker
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- Joined
- Jul 27, 2007
- Messages
- 292
I've just read this thread with great interest. First, congratulations Jeff on some excellent shooting and reporting of your results. This is just the thing that gives me the opinion that the forums are a benefit to the shooting sports.
I've read several comments and questions about the difference in the thickness of the jackets. Let me provide those reading this thread with some information that may be helpful.
The only reason the thicker jacket was produced was to eliminate a problem that competition target shooters were having with bullets failing to make it to the target during a match. Competition target shooters tend to use long barrels, hot loads, and will shoot several shots (20 or more) quickly in a race against changing conditions.
Also, during a match, these shooters will put over 100 rounds down range without cleaning the barrel and they frequently do it during hot days with their gear out in the bright sun. These conditions produce a situation where the friction and heat inside the barrel increases.
This increased friction can reach a point where it actually melts the core inside the jacket. Once any portion of the core becomes liquid, this dense material will actually tear the jacket off the bullet. When this happens the bullet can't maintain its trajectory resulting in a miss.
This is a condition we had to resolve. We found that making the jacket slightly thicker produced an interesting result. It didn't make the jacket stronger (to contain the molten lead) but it actually moves the lead further away from the source of heat (rifling) preventing the core from melting in the first place.
We solved this particular situation after we came to understand that our bullets are very effective on game. So once the issue was solved for the competition target shooters we had another question to answer. How will this slightly thicker jacket work on game? The more important question we needed to resolve is; do we have to make two different bullets? Frankly, it would be easier on us (and our customers) if we didn't have to make two different bullets because this does create confusion.
We went to work on testing the two jacket thicknesses using the same bullet. For our testing we used the Bullet Test Tube which is a wax media that we use regularly due to the fact that it holds the wound cavity rather than collapsing like ballistic gelatin.
In every comparison test, the thicker jacket produced a smaller wound channel (in volume measured by putting water into the cavity and measuring the amount). Since our bullet works so well due to the size of the wound cavity it creates it was decided that we are compelled to make both bullets.
It is accurate to say that the difference is small but we come from the world of benchrest shooting where every .001 matters. If the thinner jacket is slightly better at creating a larger wound channel than the thicker jacket then it is better. The question is answered in our minds.
As Jeff and many others have discovered, the thicker jacketed Target bullet can kill quickly. This is especially true with proper shot placement. Having said that, I am also faced with the reality that not all hunters are as capable as Jeff and the many others on this forum. For this reason we are compelled as a company to communicate a general recommendation that the Target bullets aren't recommended for hunting.
Something to keep in mind is that this is the same thing we said about our VLD bullets for decades. If it wasn't for guys like Jeff, John Burns and the many others who told us we had it wrong, we would never have learned that they do in fact work very well on game.
Again, I thank Jeff for his thorough testing and I'll relay that everyone reading this thread is benefitting from what I regard as the real benefit of shooting forums. Shooters helping shooters learn more about the activity they enjoy.
Regards,
Eric
I've read several comments and questions about the difference in the thickness of the jackets. Let me provide those reading this thread with some information that may be helpful.
The only reason the thicker jacket was produced was to eliminate a problem that competition target shooters were having with bullets failing to make it to the target during a match. Competition target shooters tend to use long barrels, hot loads, and will shoot several shots (20 or more) quickly in a race against changing conditions.
Also, during a match, these shooters will put over 100 rounds down range without cleaning the barrel and they frequently do it during hot days with their gear out in the bright sun. These conditions produce a situation where the friction and heat inside the barrel increases.
This increased friction can reach a point where it actually melts the core inside the jacket. Once any portion of the core becomes liquid, this dense material will actually tear the jacket off the bullet. When this happens the bullet can't maintain its trajectory resulting in a miss.
This is a condition we had to resolve. We found that making the jacket slightly thicker produced an interesting result. It didn't make the jacket stronger (to contain the molten lead) but it actually moves the lead further away from the source of heat (rifling) preventing the core from melting in the first place.
We solved this particular situation after we came to understand that our bullets are very effective on game. So once the issue was solved for the competition target shooters we had another question to answer. How will this slightly thicker jacket work on game? The more important question we needed to resolve is; do we have to make two different bullets? Frankly, it would be easier on us (and our customers) if we didn't have to make two different bullets because this does create confusion.
We went to work on testing the two jacket thicknesses using the same bullet. For our testing we used the Bullet Test Tube which is a wax media that we use regularly due to the fact that it holds the wound cavity rather than collapsing like ballistic gelatin.
In every comparison test, the thicker jacket produced a smaller wound channel (in volume measured by putting water into the cavity and measuring the amount). Since our bullet works so well due to the size of the wound cavity it creates it was decided that we are compelled to make both bullets.
It is accurate to say that the difference is small but we come from the world of benchrest shooting where every .001 matters. If the thinner jacket is slightly better at creating a larger wound channel than the thicker jacket then it is better. The question is answered in our minds.
As Jeff and many others have discovered, the thicker jacketed Target bullet can kill quickly. This is especially true with proper shot placement. Having said that, I am also faced with the reality that not all hunters are as capable as Jeff and the many others on this forum. For this reason we are compelled as a company to communicate a general recommendation that the Target bullets aren't recommended for hunting.
Something to keep in mind is that this is the same thing we said about our VLD bullets for decades. If it wasn't for guys like Jeff, John Burns and the many others who told us we had it wrong, we would never have learned that they do in fact work very well on game.
Again, I thank Jeff for his thorough testing and I'll relay that everyone reading this thread is benefitting from what I regard as the real benefit of shooting forums. Shooters helping shooters learn more about the activity they enjoy.
Regards,
Eric
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