The 215 Hybrids are the ticket for the 300 WSM, I don't think anything heavier would give you any advantage.
Comparing the Berger 210 VLD to the 215 Hybrid
- Thread starter Broz
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COBrad
Well-Known Member
I agree. I'm testing the 210 ABLR's, and want to try the 195 Badlands BD2 as well.
CONatureBoy
Well-Known Member
In the past few years several newcomers on this thread (and elsewhere) have asked about the problem of building handloads whose COALs are too long for a factory rifle's magazine. I'd like to provide some information about that. By way of example: Years ago I bought a Remington Sendero II SS in 300 RUM, and I started out loading the Berger 210 VLD to a COAL that was too long for the factory magazine. For a few years I put factory 180-grain Remington ammo in the magazine (it shot to the same point of aim as the VLD) in case I needed to make a quick follow-up shot at "close range," and just put one handload in the tube when I was getting ready to shoot. Eventually I had a gunsmith install a 4.0" Wyatt's extended magazine. (The smith also machined away a tiny bit of metal at the back of the action's port, and opened up the bottom of the stock to accommodate the longer magazine box.)
You can find Wyatt's extended magazines at https://wyattsoutdoor.com/product-category/internal-magazine-boxes/. Manufacturers like Hawkins make bottom metal to match, for example, https://hawkinsprecision.com/product/m5-oberndorf-bottom-metal/. Your gunsmith can order the parts, so you don't have to worry about selecting the right ones. (Just figure out what is the longest COAL you want to put in your magazine, and let the gunsmith know.) I have since replaced my 1:10-twist factory barrel with a 28" 1:9-twist barrel, so I can shoot the 230-grain Berger OTMs (and the Wyatt's magazine makes sure I don't have to load them too far back into the brass). The Berger web site tells you for each bullet what minimum twist rate the bullet requires. It also has a twist-rate stability calculator at https://bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/ that lets you be more precise about twist requirements. Faster-than-necessary twist rates have some second-order adverse effects on accuracy, so the received wisdom is to use the slowest twist rate that will stabilize all of the bullets you intend to shoot. (You can read about that in Bryan Litz's books, e.g. Amazon product ASIN 0615452566.) Usually the heavier bullets require faster twist rates.
Changing the twist rate and installing a longer magazine (and matching bottom metal) are the two changes you may need to turn a factory rifle into a rifle that will carry and properly stabilize handloads with heavy-for-caliber bullets and long-for-caliber COALs. If you start with a factory rifle, you may want to have the gunsmith blueprint and bed the action when they extend the magazine or replace the barrel. Those things can buy you more accuracy.
There are many ways you can deviate from a SAAMI-specification chamber when you have a rifle re-barreled. The smith can start with a standard reamer, ream out a SAAMI chamber, and then use a separate "throating reamer" to lengthen the throat. The result is a chamber that will accommodate any factory brass, but let you load long-for-caliber bullets without having the back of the bullet extend behind the brass' shoulder/neck junction (which is undesirable for reasons beyond the scope of this post). The gunsmith will ask you for a "dummy round" that you can make by using LocTite 222 or 243 to (temporarily) glue a bullet into some brass at exactly the COAL you want. The gunsmith can then throat your chamber so the dummy round just touches the lands. (A gunsmith can throat the chamber on a factory barrel, if you're happy with its twist rate.) When you take this approach, your brass likely won't be very tight in the chamber until after you "fire form" it by loading it and shooting it once, which causes the brass to expand to fit the chamber. How much that matters for the accuracy of the brand-new brass is hit and miss, so to speak. My 300 RUM just has a SAAMI chamber (no throating), and it shoots several kinds of long-for-caliber bullets out of factory Norma brass into one ragged hole at 200 yards, with muzzle velocities of at least 3,000 fps for anything up to 230 grains, without pressure signs. I've had the same luck with a half-dozen hunting and varminting rifles. My feeling is, a properly throated SAAMI chamber is good enough, unless you're competing. Excessive throating may buy you a bit of speed, but if you want to shoot secant-ogive bullets (VLDs), you may create the need for more jump than your hand load can produce. (As a rule of thumb, you want to have a least one shank diameter of the shank in the neck of the brass. This limits how far forward you can load the bullet.)
Burning more powder because a long throat lets you (which is the theory of the Weatherby chambers, which have up to 1/2" of freebore) also erodes throats faster. Regardless, your gun will throat itself over time, as you shoot it. See https://precisionrifle.wpenginepowe...2020/03/Different-Throat-Erosion-Patterns.png for the technicalities. So even if you don't start out with a throated chamber, you'll have one sooner or later. If you start with lots of throat, you may eventually end up with more throat than you want. (Probably that statement will trigger a religious debate on this thread. If so, I apologize!) Varminters and competitors sometimes have barrels contoured with several extra inches of full diameter at the chamber end, so they can have a gunsmith cut off some of the chamber and and re-chamber the barrel, when the throat wear becomes excessive. I've never heard of a hunter doing that, but no reason you couldn't. Just know that eventually the rest of the barrel will wear out too, and then re-chambering won't restore accuracy.
You may also want a tighter (smaller diameter) chamber, so you get the repeatability (centering consistency, hence accuracy) you want with brand-new brass, or less stretching of new brass the first time you shoot it. Gunsmiths often rent chambering reamers from places like https://4drentals.com/, and these suppliers have tight-chamber reamers available for many calibers. I've spoken with 4D a couple of times about specialty reamers for other rifles, and they've been very helpful. I encourage you to speak with these experts about the possibilities. They can send you chamber diagrams for "competition chambers," for example, if you want to see the difference between a SAAMI chamber and a competition chamber. (You'll learn quickly that there may not be just one "competition" chamber per caliber!) Be aware that having a tight chamber may mean you'll need to have a gunsmith ream you a custom full-length resizing die with the same reamer they use to chamber your barrel, so you can use the die to make sure factory brass fits the chamber. Temperature changes between the gunsmith's shop and the field, and the different rates at which brass and steel expand and shrink with temperature changes, as well as the imprecisions of mass production, can make tight chambers a bit tricky to get right--even if you ream a chamber to the dimensions of a specific brand of brass (which may change over time, lot to lot). So study tight chambering carefully before you do it.
Finally, you can go the full Monty and have a custom chambering reamer built to exactly the specifications you want. Such a reamer may combine some tightness (especially around the neck, if you want to "turn" your necks to a uniform diameter etc.) with a longer-than-standard throat. For example, I had Manson Reamers grind me a custom reamer with a particular neck diameter and throat length that would let me shoot tight "no turn" necks and 110-115-grain (long for caliber) 6mm bullets in a benchrest 6mm SLR. Having your own reamer also becomes a good idea if (as for competitive shooters) you expect to shoot enough to replace barrels regularly. Then your fire-formed (and perhaps neck turned) brass will fit perfectly in each new barrel's chamber. You can learn more about the possibilities from the tips at https://mansonreamers.com/design-a-reamer/.
As you delve into all of this stuff, you'll discover that terms such as 'throat', 'freebore', and 'leade' are used differently by different people. See for example https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/freebore-throat-and-leade.3989929/. Eventually I realized that the only way I could communicate precisely and unambiguously about chamber specifications is to use diagrams. (That's why shops like 4D and Manson Reamers send you diagrams. They want to make sure you know exactly what you'll get, before you order it.)
Hope all of that helps those of you new to the long-range game.
You can find Wyatt's extended magazines at https://wyattsoutdoor.com/product-category/internal-magazine-boxes/. Manufacturers like Hawkins make bottom metal to match, for example, https://hawkinsprecision.com/product/m5-oberndorf-bottom-metal/. Your gunsmith can order the parts, so you don't have to worry about selecting the right ones. (Just figure out what is the longest COAL you want to put in your magazine, and let the gunsmith know.) I have since replaced my 1:10-twist factory barrel with a 28" 1:9-twist barrel, so I can shoot the 230-grain Berger OTMs (and the Wyatt's magazine makes sure I don't have to load them too far back into the brass). The Berger web site tells you for each bullet what minimum twist rate the bullet requires. It also has a twist-rate stability calculator at https://bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/ that lets you be more precise about twist requirements. Faster-than-necessary twist rates have some second-order adverse effects on accuracy, so the received wisdom is to use the slowest twist rate that will stabilize all of the bullets you intend to shoot. (You can read about that in Bryan Litz's books, e.g. Amazon product ASIN 0615452566.) Usually the heavier bullets require faster twist rates.
Changing the twist rate and installing a longer magazine (and matching bottom metal) are the two changes you may need to turn a factory rifle into a rifle that will carry and properly stabilize handloads with heavy-for-caliber bullets and long-for-caliber COALs. If you start with a factory rifle, you may want to have the gunsmith blueprint and bed the action when they extend the magazine or replace the barrel. Those things can buy you more accuracy.
There are many ways you can deviate from a SAAMI-specification chamber when you have a rifle re-barreled. The smith can start with a standard reamer, ream out a SAAMI chamber, and then use a separate "throating reamer" to lengthen the throat. The result is a chamber that will accommodate any factory brass, but let you load long-for-caliber bullets without having the back of the bullet extend behind the brass' shoulder/neck junction (which is undesirable for reasons beyond the scope of this post). The gunsmith will ask you for a "dummy round" that you can make by using LocTite 222 or 243 to (temporarily) glue a bullet into some brass at exactly the COAL you want. The gunsmith can then throat your chamber so the dummy round just touches the lands. (A gunsmith can throat the chamber on a factory barrel, if you're happy with its twist rate.) When you take this approach, your brass likely won't be very tight in the chamber until after you "fire form" it by loading it and shooting it once, which causes the brass to expand to fit the chamber. How much that matters for the accuracy of the brand-new brass is hit and miss, so to speak. My 300 RUM just has a SAAMI chamber (no throating), and it shoots several kinds of long-for-caliber bullets out of factory Norma brass into one ragged hole at 200 yards, with muzzle velocities of at least 3,000 fps for anything up to 230 grains, without pressure signs. I've had the same luck with a half-dozen hunting and varminting rifles. My feeling is, a properly throated SAAMI chamber is good enough, unless you're competing. Excessive throating may buy you a bit of speed, but if you want to shoot secant-ogive bullets (VLDs), you may create the need for more jump than your hand load can produce. (As a rule of thumb, you want to have a least one shank diameter of the shank in the neck of the brass. This limits how far forward you can load the bullet.)
Burning more powder because a long throat lets you (which is the theory of the Weatherby chambers, which have up to 1/2" of freebore) also erodes throats faster. Regardless, your gun will throat itself over time, as you shoot it. See https://precisionrifle.wpenginepowe...2020/03/Different-Throat-Erosion-Patterns.png for the technicalities. So even if you don't start out with a throated chamber, you'll have one sooner or later. If you start with lots of throat, you may eventually end up with more throat than you want. (Probably that statement will trigger a religious debate on this thread. If so, I apologize!) Varminters and competitors sometimes have barrels contoured with several extra inches of full diameter at the chamber end, so they can have a gunsmith cut off some of the chamber and and re-chamber the barrel, when the throat wear becomes excessive. I've never heard of a hunter doing that, but no reason you couldn't. Just know that eventually the rest of the barrel will wear out too, and then re-chambering won't restore accuracy.
You may also want a tighter (smaller diameter) chamber, so you get the repeatability (centering consistency, hence accuracy) you want with brand-new brass, or less stretching of new brass the first time you shoot it. Gunsmiths often rent chambering reamers from places like https://4drentals.com/, and these suppliers have tight-chamber reamers available for many calibers. I've spoken with 4D a couple of times about specialty reamers for other rifles, and they've been very helpful. I encourage you to speak with these experts about the possibilities. They can send you chamber diagrams for "competition chambers," for example, if you want to see the difference between a SAAMI chamber and a competition chamber. (You'll learn quickly that there may not be just one "competition" chamber per caliber!) Be aware that having a tight chamber may mean you'll need to have a gunsmith ream you a custom full-length resizing die with the same reamer they use to chamber your barrel, so you can use the die to make sure factory brass fits the chamber. Temperature changes between the gunsmith's shop and the field, and the different rates at which brass and steel expand and shrink with temperature changes, as well as the imprecisions of mass production, can make tight chambers a bit tricky to get right--even if you ream a chamber to the dimensions of a specific brand of brass (which may change over time, lot to lot). So study tight chambering carefully before you do it.
Finally, you can go the full Monty and have a custom chambering reamer built to exactly the specifications you want. Such a reamer may combine some tightness (especially around the neck, if you want to "turn" your necks to a uniform diameter etc.) with a longer-than-standard throat. For example, I had Manson Reamers grind me a custom reamer with a particular neck diameter and throat length that would let me shoot tight "no turn" necks and 110-115-grain (long for caliber) 6mm bullets in a benchrest 6mm SLR. Having your own reamer also becomes a good idea if (as for competitive shooters) you expect to shoot enough to replace barrels regularly. Then your fire-formed (and perhaps neck turned) brass will fit perfectly in each new barrel's chamber. You can learn more about the possibilities from the tips at https://mansonreamers.com/design-a-reamer/.
As you delve into all of this stuff, you'll discover that terms such as 'throat', 'freebore', and 'leade' are used differently by different people. See for example https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/freebore-throat-and-leade.3989929/. Eventually I realized that the only way I could communicate precisely and unambiguously about chamber specifications is to use diagrams. (That's why shops like 4D and Manson Reamers send you diagrams. They want to make sure you know exactly what you'll get, before you order it.)
Hope all of that helps those of you new to the long-range game.
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I have read your 8-19-2013 post about loading the 30-378 with 230 Bergers using h-1000, and fed 215 primes would you could you, please tell me your powder charge, I realize it is my responsibility to start at a lower charge and work my way ups. Thank you bill
Jeff (Broz) does not post here anymore. He has since started his own company (Long Range Only); some of us are also members there.
