Common Question

[Guest]

Buffalo Bob, ever hear of a .308?
They'll shoot far. They can easily take a deer at 600 yards.
Would you call them barrel burners?

Also, if you have a quality match grade barrel of good heavy contour, it will last longer than one of those "weatherby anarexia barrels. (I called them "pencil" barrels in another post and wanted to stay original) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Did you know that Krieger made them specify that the barrels are Krieger "Creiterion". They did not want weatherby to make people think that they were getting a custom Krieger barrel. You have to pay extra for that.
You also have to pay extra to have the action trued???
1.5" groups at 100 yards! My Ithaca deerslayer shotgun does that.

Weatherby likes to make people think that if you buy one of their rifles you can immediately shoot big game out to 500 yards just by following their drop chart because they are so fast and powerful.

Lighter, thin barreled, ultra high velocity rifles will have shorter barrel life and shoot less accurate than a heavier rifle with a larger contour barrel using heavier bullets.

Can anyone honestly say that the weatherby is a better rifle than a Sendero for a lot less money?

 

[1doug]

john m
you mention the 308 is capable of taking a deer at 600 yards. a little time with my pesja balistics; this is what i got comparing "custom ammo"

the 257 weatherby 110 accubond takes 6.9moa from 200 yards, has a s.d .238 @ 3400 fps(nosler custom ammo) @ 600 yrds has 1436 ft lbs of energy
the 308 win 165 balistic tip takes 11.7moa from 200 yards, has a s.d .248 @ 2650(Black hills gold) @ 600 has 1324 ft lbs of energy.

<font color="red"> had he asked about a 308, most every one would have given him a thumbs up. </font>

the fact is the 257 wtby gets there flatter, hits harder than the 308. clearly 1400+ foot pounds of energy is enough to dispatch a deer.

Again just my 2 cents worth <font color="red"> </font>

 

[Paulinus]

I am afraid this will only fuel the discussion, but below is a quote from Chuck Hawks who was an extensive website devoted to firearms.

"With modern controlled expansion bullets the .257 Weatherby Magnum takes its place alongside the .264 Winchester Magnum, 6.5x68S, and .270 WSM (as well as its .270 and 7mm Weatherby sister cartridges), as one of the world's premier long range big game calibers. For hunting really large big game animals the 6.5mm and .270 Magnums ultimately have the advantage due to their ability to handle heavier bullets of significantly greater sectional density. But for medium to medium-large big game (up to about 500 pounds) the .257 Weatherby Magnum may be the best long range cartridge of them all."

 

[bailey1474]

[ QUOTE ]
( or at least Lerch doesn't care if he burns out BJ's barrel)


[/ QUOTE ]

Thank goodness he just bought that 25-06. I was getting tired of doing all the work and him getting the glory /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif. I guess I'll have to show him how to shoot that *** if he ever gets it broken in and a load worked up for it.

 

[Guest]

d-a, at 600 yards, do you want to hit a large mulie or whitetail with a 110 grain bullet or a 165 grain bullet?

Don't you think it matters that the diameter of the .308 bullet is 20% larger than the .257?

Which will be more accurate at 600 yards?

Your methodology could make a case for a even smaller calibers.

At long range you want to anchor the animal. Like LB said earlier, "...the fact that it will work is beside the point..."
If I hit a deer with a 17HRM right thru the heart, will it live? No.
Does that mean I should do it?

I'll take a .308 with a 168 match king and you take a .257 with any bullet you want and you can help me field dress my deer and put him on my truck.

 

[LB]

[ QUOTE ]
But for medium to medium-large big game (up to about 500 pounds) the .257 Weatherby Magnum may be the best long range cartridge of them all."


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know who this Guru is, that wrote the above statement, but it amounts to nothing more than a personal opinion by someone that has swallowed the Weatherby mystique. If he's a writer, be advised; as experts, they have the least legitimacy, on the planet.

Sorry for beating a dead horse. It's a waste of time, but the real purpose of these discusions is to prevent us from rolling in the dirt on the street corner, while exchanging points of view. Calibers will cause more heated debate than any other subject; it will never change. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Good hunting. LB

PS I'd like to be more optimistic, but my guess is that $1000 worth of factory ammo will render your barrel, toast.

 

[Buffalobob]

John M

What I know about the 308 is that it was my sniper that set the Americal Division record that day in June 1970 or 71 (memory is not always real good) with a national match M-14 and lake city match ammo. I have serched and searched the internet to verify that the shot he made is still the record but have never been able to confirm it. You have never ever seen me say anything bad about the 308. I have simply seen to many fantastic shots by some of the worlds best and I was the man standing there with the little black bar on my collar saying shoot or don't shoot.

To me the object of the forum is to share advice, information and help. Not to see how many times you can insult a persons choice of guns. Sometimes the information we have at our disposal conflicts with other peoples information. The most recent example is in Ian's thread where hydrostatic shock dose not work for me but Joe Boyd sneezes and the deer dies of fright. There are witness to all events so we are reasonably sure all events are true. But they still conflict.

I have a nice little remington 700 where everything is factory and I spent all day yesterday shooting it and as usual the gun did everything you could ask for in a 17 Rem caliber. The two Mark V's I have had experience with were sub MOA guns out of the box with factory ammo. Ruger #1's are notoriuosly finicky and are a challenge sometimes but they are so much fun to shoot that the challenge is just part of the experience. There are a lot of people here who shoot different brands and types of guns. I have never owned a Savage and a year ago would have said that I never would but so many people talk about how good they shoot that it simply must be true. I see no point in delibrately insulting one brand of gun over another.

When I posted the data on my 240 Wby at 600 yds, I had just run the numbers on the 257 Wby (DA has just posted them) and I found it amusing how much energy was out there for the 257 Wby compared to the 240 Wby. And yes I would pull the trigger at 600 yds with the 240 Wby if I had been practicing and had a decent shot, the right bullet, etc, etc. The gun was doing well at 500yds yesterday and I finally got it dialed in at 1000yds.

Now then let me go out to talk about things I don't know anything about. The guy who sold me the F N action that I used to build the 240 WBy had a Ackly 228 that he used for hunting mule deer and the guy had some humongous racks on the wall. The guy had "peculiar" hunting techniques that worked for him. My underestanding of the 228 Ackly is that it was designed specifically to get around the restriction on 224 calibers for deer hunting. And once we get the 224 caliber deer hunters involved in this discussion we will see some strange numbers come up on what it takes to kill a deer ( I have tried that too and it does work but is not my idea of fun and fun is why I hunt).

The point of my last post was to demonstarate the differency between helping a person and insulting a person.

The purpose of this post is the same. There is a difference between insults and help. 25 years ago when I started doing this stuff there was no one to help me and I made a lot of mistakes. I still make mistakes and I expect I will continue to make mistakes. A guy gave me some advice on wind at the range yesterday and I thought he was crazy but I begin noticing as I walked from the bench out to the 1000yd targets that he was right. The flags showed a right to left wind but the wind was actually funneling straight downrange. Once I understood his help and advice things begin to go well at 1000yds. That is what the forum is about to me.

 

[Guest]

BuffaloBob, my mention of the .308 was in response to your point that inorder to shoot far you need a high speed barrel burner. I mentioned that round to demonstrate that is simply not true.

As far as my last post. I have to say the d-a is COMPLETELY off base. His comparison between the 308 and 257 was not an accurate comparison. It left out caliber diameter, Bullet weights, and their effects at long range.

Some statements are opinions and some are facts. Most are a little of each. I'm sure many guys are happy with the Weatherby's. My point here is not to insult weatherby over all. Just as LB put it, the weatherby "Mystique".

In another post a guy just bought a 30-378 Weatherby. Talk about a barrel burner! He said he bought is because his friend is a "wealthy guy" who owns a gun store and thats what he hunts with. This guy told him that any animal he has ever shot has never gone more than 20 feet.
First of all, I never understood what the being wealthy had to do with it. Second, I posted in reply that bullet selection has a lot to do with it. I personally do not see the value in Weatherby rifles. Especially when compared to something like the Sendero.

 

[Buffalobob]

John M

With respect to your point on what actually kills, I tend to agree that bullet diameter is a very important component of the equation and is perhaps more important than bullet speed. I do not believe that energy is the correct descritpion of what kills but it is what most people understand and can relate to and can be used for comparison. And I believe that DA's conclusion is right and he undoubtably has enough knowledge to know about bullet diameter. However, Paulinus will need to practice just like all of the rest of us before he takes a shot at that range and he may make a mistake just like all of the rest of us. If we had a contest on which of us has done the stupidest thing it would be one long thread.

The reason the 338s are the undisputed king of super long range shooting is they make a big hole with a big bullet (this will probably start another argument). My feeling on speed is twofold one it helps with range error and wind and two -momentum is what is needed to break bones (impact or impulse analysis) and speed (velocity)is part of the equation in momentum analysis (of course the bullet has to withstand the impact) and mass is the other. When one is shooting the smaller calibers one must be very comfortable with one's ability to shoot around the shoulder bones or else one must have a gun capable of breaking them at the range of the shot. I think the 257Wby will do that with a nice heavy bullet. Will a 7Mag do it better, Oh yes, there will be exactly the hole you describe.


I fully agree with you on thin barrels, before I found this forum I was completely set on having a 30-378 built on a Neiska action and a heavy Lilja barrel and and A5 stock. I still may, but I am very hopeful that Kirby will succeed with his 7mm. I credit Weatherby for setting a very high bar as far a cartridge case capacity but both of my guns are on non-weatherby actions. The thin barrels will shoot OK but the barrel is not a place to save weight.

Any way, I have cleaned the guns a little and now I got to mow the yard, then I will clean the guns some more. Then I guess I will fool with my brass and watch the race. The good news seems to be that I have finally got enough powder behind the 160 Accubond that the carbon fouling is way way down in that gun and it is mostly copper fouling now. We will see if the primer pockets are still good? The bad news is I got to re-shim the scope.

I am going to post this but I might come back and edit it later.

 

[1doug]

john m
[ QUOTE ]
the 308 win 165 balistic tip, the 257 weatherby 110 accubond

[/ QUOTE ] i am sorry i did not spell it out for you , however i assumed you knew a little about ammo lingo. the 308 is a .308 diameter 165 grain bullet, the 257 weatherby is a .257 diameter 110 grain bullet. I do however belive that s.d (Sectional Density)is a better comparison than bullet diameter. I could have compared the 308 with a 110 v max to the 257 weatherby, it (the 308 has a larger frontal area, but lower s.d) would not have made you happy either.
And yes the 308 is .051 thousands bigger, but when an animal is hit, i dont think (no scientific evidence yet, but I am sure some one is working on it) the animal says holy shiit that was a 30 cal bullet.

And yes i would prefer the 257 wtby over the 308. I do not think frontal area is a key concern for deer under 300 pounds. yes I do have close buddies that go to canada every year that kill deer up to 330 pounds with a 257 weatherby and a barnes x bullet.
And yes I am building a 257 stw as my primary deer gun. when i have an assortment of 30 cal sitting in a safe. three of which are mystical weatherbys that shoot sub moa, two 300 wins, and a 300 rum.

so for the morale of the story shoot what you want,and maybe you can find some happiness; and i will shoot what i want and know what works.

<font color="red"> again; just my final two cents worth on this </font>

 

[LB]

Bufalo Bob,

I'm not too sure if you are refering to me, or not? If you are, to be perfectly clear, I am not attempting to insult anybody. I am going to state my opinion, without sugarcoating it. As an adult, I am sure that anyone old enough to choose and purchase a firearm is also mature enough to understand, and accept that when he asks for opinion, he may not get total agreement. Most people can deal with a difference of opinion without considering it as insult.

Good hunting. LB

 

[Guest]

d-a, once again you have made a statement out of context. I never said a 257 weatherby wouldn't kill a 300 lb deer. You make no mention of distance.

Lets clarify the points of discussion in proper context. We are talking about the 257 wby vs. the .308 at 600 yards. The 308 is a way better choice for that distance. I'm not saying it wont work, just that is not the better choice. And, it not even a good choice for that distance.'

Now, you are building a 257 wildcat that is a different story than a 257 wby off-the-shelf rifle.

Buffalo Bob, I agree about building a rifle in a wby caliber vs. buying a factory wby. If you were going to get one that is. I have a 338 lapua with a #7 lilja. I couldn't imagine a wimpy little barrel on that thing. I have a #5 krieger on my 7stw and thats as small a barrel as I would ever go.
I personally like heavy longarms. I can control recoil without a brake (hate brakes) which in the end means better accuracy. I have a Ithaca deerslayer III shotgun that I bought a few years back. They only made them for a short while because they weigh 10 3/4 pounds without a scope.

I also agree that you need enough speed. But I want just as much as I need. I'd take my lapua over a 30-378 anyday.

Good Hunting

 

[Buffalobob]

Paulinus

If you will send me an email, I will send you an impact analysis of the 257 Wby at 600 yds using conservation of momentum theory and some hard data that is known to be true and verified. You will be able to check my calculations relatively easy. There is not much point in posting it and continuing the argument on this forum. By undergraduate training I am a physicist but by later training and profession I am an engineer.

You will not need to be a physicist to check my work and it will bring a smile to your face.

 

[Guest]

BuffaloBob, Thats pretty cool that you are a physicist and engineer.

I have a PHD in Applied Mathmatics from MIT.

Too bad your not going to post that, I'd like to see it.
By the way, do you have any theories about wind drift at that distance?