Can switching muzzle brakes change muzzle velocity??

[TXAoudadKlr]

The truth is I can never leave well enough alone. I had a 4-port muscle brake on it and it worked great.

But I ended up installing a Terminator T2 brake on my 300 win mag and I was very impressed with not only the recoil reduction but also the quality of the machining. The machining is of very high quality and compared to the muscle brake, the wall thickness around the ports is thinner which makes for a much lighter brake.

So I decided to give the Terminator T3 a try on my 338 RUM. I personally think the T3 reduces recoil noticeably more but that is subjective without any real testing to back that up. But it did lighten my rifle up and make it noticeably less nose heavy as well.

I was really worried it would change the accuracy or make me retune my load, but this 338 has been a dream to shoot. It never was finicky with hand loads and shoots everything to just about the same POI, so I took the gamble. I'm the end it shoots just as good as it used to, with the exception of this muzzle velocity difference. That's still got me scratching my head...

The T3 is awesome isn't it. I had a 4 port DE brake on my 12lb 338LM and couldn't stand it. Even with a brake it kicked harder than an rifle I've shot. With the T3 it's in the neighbor of my 270 win m700 SPS.

 

[North Idaho Hunter]

I had a 4 port DE brake on my 12lb 338LM and couldn't stand it.

Ironic that you mention that, I have a 4 port DE on my 12.5 338 RUM and I am not impressed with the brake. however, 300 grain pills are going to deliver a stout kick to begin with. After the first 100 rounds I learned to live with it, but I have found the 4 port DE brake to have a little left to be desired.

 

[bigngreen]

I think this is a combination of baffle angle and bore through hole, I've installed a pile of Muscle brakes and many others and by design the Terminator and PK design will pressure to the forward ports putting pressure across the whole brake. A straight baffle design I'm starting to think does not pass the pressure gas as well across the ports unless you open the through hole on the first baffle to put more gas across the brake. You will get more reduction with a 30 degree baffle vs a straight but it's not going to make a life altering difference.
I haven't tested this on a personal rifle because I have not had one that I though needed to be better, I have played with brakes that from the manufacture have a larger front baffle hole to put more gas across the whole brake and their effective.

 

[Timber338]

I was not unhappy with the 4-port muscle brake, I just really like how small and streamline the Terminator brake is. I think that was my #1 reason for the switch. I do think it reduces recoil a bit better but not to a huge degree. I think for their size and weight the Terminator brakes are unbeatable. Overall I am extremely happy with both this T3 and the T2 on my 300 win mag.

Bigngreen, I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense about port angle and bore through hole. I think some gains could be made in design if a guy used some advanced computer modeling to design a brake, but like you say, probably not life altering.

And for my rifle, it's not that I really care to get back the 47 FPS that I lost, I'm just interested in consistency, and be confident in my long range trajectory. I don't want to have my higher velocity show up on opening morning of my elk hunt and then have a shot impact high. I'll play around a little more and see if I can get confidence that my new muzzle velocity is here to stay.

 

[TXAoudadKlr]

Ironic that you mention that, I have a 4 port DE on my 12.5 338 RUM and I am not impressed with the brake. however, 300 grain pills are going to deliver a stout kick to begin with. After the first 100 rounds I learned to live with it, but I have found the 4 port DE brake to have a little left to be desired.

I only had 28 rounds down the tube before I had had enough. Even though I really didn't want to swap the brake out for something else. Several factors in the end won over and made me switch one was my buddy's Tac50 50BMG being more pleasant to shoot another was the rifle was for my dad and if it bothered me it would certainly bother him.

 

[bigngreen]

Bigngreen, I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense about port angle and bore through hole. I think some gains could be made in design if a guy used some advanced computer modeling to design a brake, but like you say, probably not life altering.

My brothers are extremely gifted in engineering, computer code and physics and I have them on it, the one wrote me a program in 15 minutes for my smart phone that I can use to calculate the yield strength on muzzle device threads for different exit pressures and steels.

I've used the Terminator brake on a build and really did not like it, every time I pulled the trigger it felt like someone shoved and air hose up my sinuses and pulled the trigger, gave me a head ache in a couple shots same for the Pain Killer, the straight front port of the Muscle brake really works well for me but I think a 4-5 port mini mag would be excellent, I've gotten them to work well on RUM's but more ports would be excellent.

 

[IdahoCTD]

A brake will not effect velocity like a suppressor. The bullet is already gone from the barrel and at it's peak velocity before the brake can do anything. A suppressor acts somewhat like a longer barrel since the gases are fully contained inside it.

 

[Timber338]

I've used the Terminator brake on a build and really did not like it, every time I pulled the trigger it felt like someone shoved and air hose up my sinuses and pulled the trigger, gave me a head ache in a couple shots same for the Pain Killer, the straight front port of the Muscle brake really works well for me but I think a 4-5 port mini mag would be excellent, I've gotten them to work well on RUM's but more ports would be excellent.

The muscle brakes certainly are smooth brakes. And I agree the terminators have more felt concussion. With my light rifle I was getting pushed around pretty good with the 300 grain Bullets and I am not a small guy... It was tough to spot shots. No such thing as a free lunch, always a trade off, and for my setup I think I made a good choice to make my rifle balance better and reduce the recoil so I can spot shots easier.

Also cool that your brothers help you out with useful analytical tools like that. I think eventually somebody is going to apply some high end analysis to muzzle brake design and come up with a pretty slick product.

 

[WildRose]

I think this is a combination of baffle angle and bore through hole, I've installed a pile of Muscle brakes and many others and by design the Terminator and PK design will pressure to the forward ports putting pressure across the whole brake. A straight baffle design I'm starting to think does not pass the pressure gas as well across the ports unless you open the through hole on the first baffle to put more gas across the brake. You will get more reduction with a 30 degree baffle vs a straight but it's not going to make a life altering difference.
I haven't tested this on a personal rifle because I have not had one that I though needed to be better, I have played with brakes that from the manufacture have a larger front baffle hole to put more gas across the whole brake and their effective.

Theres certainly some truth to that.

Many popular brakes simply do not have large enough bafflle holes to let enough of the pressure dissipate before it leaves the end of the brake. Many, dont have them angled properly.

Some of the big flat versions have their baffles angled sharply back which of course is very efficient (expecially when they have large holes) at reducing recoil but the back blast after just a few shots makes you feel like a punching bag for Mike Tyson.

It seems to me that those which simply have large holes all the way up or progressively larger holes when they are also drilled to considerably large than caliber right up to the ned of the brake do the best job of reducing felt recoil and muzzle flip.

Ive put the North West Precision brakes (slotted version) on everything now up to and including my 375 Ruger and its the best money Ive spent on brakes since putting on my first one over three years ago.

They may not look as cool as many on the market, they simply do the job and by that I mean significant reduction in muzzle flip, and very good reduction in recoil.

On top of that being side discharge vs 360 Deg Radial discharge brakes you never have to worry about getting sand blasted due to the blast when shooting into the wind which can not only be painful, unpleasant, and damage your eyes, it makes it impossible to spot your shot and if you aren't wearing shooting glasses by the time you get the dust and dirt out of your eyes you'll be extremely lucky to be able to see where your downed animal is or if it ran over the next ridge laughing at you!

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I've shot quite a few different brakes, but not enough to say I am some sort of expert. My current situation I am not happy with the brake that I purchased on my rebarrel. Per Ryan's recommendation I have drilled out the first baffle to try and get more pressure to the next 4. I have not had a chance to shoot it since drilling it out. When I do I'll post about it.

We have put Pain Killers on almost all of our custom rifles, so they are the one that I am most familiar with. With that said they become the bell weather to compare brakes to for me. I have yet to shoot a brake that works as well. I do not notice concussion from the brake as a shooter. If you are next to the shooter, you are going to get it. So as a spotter I always set up behind the shooter.

With my current riffle that I am not happy with the brake, I thought I could save a $100 bucks and go with a different brake that has a good reputation. It is on a 338 Lap imp. It is like shooting a 300wm un braked. NOT what I consider good. All of our other rifles of this same kind of class I would let women and children shoot. Those all have the PK. I picked the brake that I don't like because it has 5 ports thinking it had to work as well as a the 3 port PK. NOT EVEN CLOSE! In the end I will not experiment with any other brakes on my own rifles or customer rifles. I will wind up spending double by the time I get it fixed. My only hope is the drilling out of the first baffle, but I am not holding my breath.

Steve

 

[IdahoCTD]

If you have to drill out the first baffle to try and get a brake to work better it's designed wrong. The concept of a muscle brake is great but a disproportionate amount of work happens in the first baffle and when it's straight or 90 degrees it won't work as well as a more aggressive brake. That is why the DE brakes don't work well too.

 

[Wedgy]

In this brake comparison a while ago there were 2 brakes that stood out among the pack, the APA and Alamo 4 Star. Not all brakes were included but what feature do these 2 have that made them work better ? Anyone familiar with them or did they just have the first hole drilled out a little bigger than the rest ?


Big Bore Results
Muzzle Brakes: Recoil Results for 308 & 300 Magnum - PrecisionRifleBlog.com

Intro
Muzzle Brakes: Field Test Overview & Line-Up - PrecisionRifleBlog.com

6 & 6.5mm results
Muzzle Brakes: Recoil Results for 6mm & 6.5mm - PrecisionRifleBlog.com

 

[Timber338]

I've shot quite a few different brakes, but not enough to say I am some sort of expert. My current situation I am not happy with the brake that I purchased on my rebarrel. Per Ryan's recommendation I have drilled out the first baffle to try and get more pressure to the next 4. I have not had a chance to shoot it since drilling it out. When I do I'll post about it.

We have put Pain Killers on almost all of our custom rifles, so they are the one that I am most familiar with. With that said they become the bell weather to compare brakes to for me. I have yet to shoot a brake that works as well. I do not notice concussion from the brake as a shooter. If you are next to the shooter, you are going to get it. So as a spotter I always set up behind the shooter.

With my current riffle that I am not happy with the brake, I thought I could save a $100 bucks and go with a different brake that has a good reputation. It is on a 338 Lap imp. It is like shooting a 300wm un braked. NOT what I consider good. All of our other rifles of this same kind of class I would let women and children shoot. Those all have the PK. I picked the brake that I don't like because it has 5 ports thinking it had to work as well as a the 3 port PK. NOT EVEN CLOSE! In the end I will not experiment with any other brakes on my own rifles or customer rifles. I will wind up spending double by the time I get it fixed. My only hope is the drilling out of the first baffle, but I am not holding my breath.

Steve

Good feedback. Opening the bore on the first baffle is an interesting idea, I kind of like that. I also agree that could mean that it's not an ideal design to begin with, but nothing wrong with trying some new tricks to make things better. As far as I know, brake designs evolve by trial and error, I have yet to see a brake designed with analytical tools like high pressure flow computer modeling. So tweaking an existing brake like opening the bore on the first baffle or drilling a hole on the top to reduce muzzle jump is just evolving a design that certainly did not start out optimized.

Wedgy, I have seen that comparison but do not personally have much experience with lots of different brakes. One brake I don't know if I have ever seen in a comparison is the Assassin brake. I have always wanted to build a rifle with one of those brakes and for some reason think they'll outperform just about any brake out there. I could be wrong but it seems like more testing went into that design than any other, so it would be the most evolved. i really have no real basis for that, just a hunch based from reading about it on this forum over the years.

 

[IdahoCTD]

Obviously not all the more aggressive brakes were tested in the tests PRB did but the 2 that did the best have more aggressive port angles. That is why they reduce the most recoil.

Here are several test I've done comparing the T-3 Terminator, Harrels, Fat Bastard, Little Bastard, Muscle Brake, etc. on rifles from a 6.5x47 Lapua to a 338 Lapua.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfCk0LiY1gwB-BIdTYWdhcQ

The guy from Terminator Products has already tested the Pain Killer, DE, Alamo 4 Star, and Fat Bastard brakes so I didn't feel the need to buy all of them for testing. I did try to buy a Alamo 4 Star and they finally got back to me after 3 months to try and finish the order. Needless to say I canceled the order. If it takes 3 months to get one not many people are going to buy it.

I did also offer to test Jerry's Assassin brake on my test sled but he wasn't interested.

When I get into testing 5 ports I might buy one of Jerry's brakes to compare with the others. Personally I don't think it will be any better because he uses progressively steeper ports. So the first port is about a 10 degree back angle and then they get steeper as you go further down the brake. Somewhat of the same concept as the muscle brake. That works well to limit the concussion to the shooter but not great for reducing the most recoil. There is no free lunch with brakes.