California varmint/lead free design - 20/5.7x28FN - discussion
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
D
Deleted member 46119
Guest
No, CZ and Savage listed/made them but have discontinued them. I have not found any on the auction sites yet.
benchracer
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2009
- Messages
- 1,659
Something based on .22 TCM seems to me to be the way to go here. It easily outperforms the 5.7x28. You can make brass from cut-down .223 cases, even ones with split necks.
If you start with a rifle chambered for .223, you should be able to cut off the threads and re-chamber the factory barrel for the new cartridge.
Subsonic loads would be easy to produce by adapting Calhoon's Blue Dot/800-X lead bullet loads for the .223. They are easily scaled up or down and can be adapted to use non-lead bullets.
If you start with a rifle chambered for .223, you should be able to cut off the threads and re-chamber the factory barrel for the new cartridge.
Subsonic loads would be easy to produce by adapting Calhoon's Blue Dot/800-X lead bullet loads for the .223. They are easily scaled up or down and can be adapted to use non-lead bullets.
D
Deleted member 46119
Guest
That was something I was looking at.
I wasn't sure what the TCM was formed from. Since it's 223, easy and cheap.
Looks like that round is very similar to the .223 short being developed in Australia, just a slight difference in case length.
With the slightly larger diameter case, it could be necked up to 6mm for some decent BC bullets, or necked down for lower bullet prices.
With the slightly larger diameter case, it could be necked up to 6mm for some decent BC bullets, or necked down for lower bullet prices.
D
Deleted member 46119
Guest
A TCM is an option.
D
Deleted member 46119
Guest
I entered the 22 TCM design into QuickDesign.
Yes, it looks the part. Barnes 30 grain Varmint Grenade at 1100 to emulate a 22LR and full tilt at ~3350 for more serious work.
Yes, it looks like a 243 version could very happily send a 55 grain Nosler Lead Free at the fine velocity of 2750+ from a 20". Might even propel a decent sized bullet for close range work in game.
Yes, any 223 could be updated, just set it back. A Rem 783 would fit that bill fine and cheap.
Yes, it looks the part. Barnes 30 grain Varmint Grenade at 1100 to emulate a 22LR and full tilt at ~3350 for more serious work.
Yes, it looks like a 243 version could very happily send a 55 grain Nosler Lead Free at the fine velocity of 2750+ from a 20". Might even propel a decent sized bullet for close range work in game.
Yes, any 223 could be updated, just set it back. A Rem 783 would fit that bill fine and cheap.
The .22 TCM is a neat, low recoil cartridge, but does it meet the goal of being low cost to shoot, a .22LR copper replacement vs a normal .223?
- Lighter weight ammo - yes
- fun - yes, well ok, I like shooting most anything
- $ 0.25 per round target with lead free bullets? - from here it looks no cheaper than a normal .223. The big savings is going down to the .204 caliber.
I am just having fun with you Fred, go ahead and build what you like.
In case you get curious about the .223 short, do a search on ".223 short project". It is in the go2gbo.com forum.
The brass actually necks really close to .204 caliber due to the thicker brass as it is reformed.
- Lighter weight ammo - yes
- fun - yes, well ok, I like shooting most anything
- $ 0.25 per round target with lead free bullets? - from here it looks no cheaper than a normal .223. The big savings is going down to the .204 caliber.
I am just having fun with you Fred, go ahead and build what you like.
In case you get curious about the .223 short, do a search on ".223 short project". It is in the go2gbo.com forum.
The brass actually necks really close to .204 caliber due to the thicker brass as it is reformed.
D
Deleted member 46119
Guest
I'm pretty sure a 22 TCM will be close enough as brass is free. Pick up enough, short by head stamp and go.
Brass: $0.00
Primer: $0.05
Powder: $0.02 (2 grains of Trail Boss or Blue Dot)
Bullet: $0.15
Total $.022
Works for me.
I diddled up a 20 TCM. $0.01 cheaper but can't go sub sonic like the 22 with a 30 grain Barns VG. I don't know the terminal results of a VG at 22LR velocities. Considering it meets the CA state requirement, I'm good with what ever comes out.
There's one more thing I want to try. Running a 22 Hornet into the 5.7x28FN die and seeing how it comes out. I have to do some case mock ups anyway so I'll throw that in. It has one draw back compared to the TCM or 5.7. Brass is not free or cheep.
Brass: $0.00
Primer: $0.05
Powder: $0.02 (2 grains of Trail Boss or Blue Dot)
Bullet: $0.15
Total $.022
Works for me.
I diddled up a 20 TCM. $0.01 cheaper but can't go sub sonic like the 22 with a 30 grain Barns VG. I don't know the terminal results of a VG at 22LR velocities. Considering it meets the CA state requirement, I'm good with what ever comes out.
There's one more thing I want to try. Running a 22 Hornet into the 5.7x28FN die and seeing how it comes out. I have to do some case mock ups anyway so I'll throw that in. It has one draw back compared to the TCM or 5.7. Brass is not free or cheep.
D
Deleted member 46119
Guest
I wish we could buy lead free .17 cals. like Hornady NTX.
I did look into swagging them. Should work but not my thing at the moment.
I did look into swagging them. Should work but not my thing at the moment.
Some random info:
- I contacted a small custom bolt action builder about the 5.7x28 and the idea of building a bolt action for it.
- He is at Camp Perry this week, so will talk when he gets home and settled.
- Even if there are no obstacles, and I find some money to throw at it, I sure that it would take 6-12 months to develop.
- For 17 caliber / 4mm, that is very close to the point where you could use brass grub screws or bevel cut some extruded wire for low cost plinking.
- I contacted a small custom bolt action builder about the 5.7x28 and the idea of building a bolt action for it.
- He is at Camp Perry this week, so will talk when he gets home and settled.
- Even if there are no obstacles, and I find some money to throw at it, I sure that it would take 6-12 months to develop.
- For 17 caliber / 4mm, that is very close to the point where you could use brass grub screws or bevel cut some extruded wire for low cost plinking.
D
Deleted member 46119
Guest
I'm sure it's possible to swag/press 100% copper wire. It's getting setup to swag/press them.
Or we could just hammer on Hornady until they relent and sell us 17 cal NTX.
Custom actions are spendy for my concept. That is why I am so interested in something cheaper.
Or we could just hammer on Hornady until they relent and sell us 17 cal NTX.
Custom actions are spendy for my concept. That is why I am so interested in something cheaper.
I don't think that swaging is needed for plinking. 24 gauge solid wire is just 0.003 inch under the .204 caliber spec. That is soft and could be cut with nail clippers or wire cutters.
A person could easily cut 1,000 of them from $10 of wire, and sort by weight while watching Netflix.
I understand the desire for avoiding a new, custom made action to run a low cost, .22LR replacement. I can buy a lot of .270 win hand loads before getting payback vs. buying any small caliber and doing an ROI calculation.
That is one reason I try to only buy guns that are "substantially" different, that and budget challenges of course.
A person could easily cut 1,000 of them from $10 of wire, and sort by weight while watching Netflix.
I understand the desire for avoiding a new, custom made action to run a low cost, .22LR replacement. I can buy a lot of .270 win hand loads before getting payback vs. buying any small caliber and doing an ROI calculation.
That is one reason I try to only buy guns that are "substantially" different, that and budget challenges of course.
