Bullet failures

[Petey308]

You know, we talk about bullet failures all the time and how so and so lost a deer because the bullet penciled through and so on. What about bad shots where bullet performance lead to a dead animal? Maybe this should be a different thread?
I shot an 8 pt Whitetail a few years back and by all intensive purposes I should have never recovered the deer. Bad shot, far back, deer should have never been found. It was straight up gut shot. Center punched in the stomach. I backed out, came back in next morning and found the deer 250yds or so from where I shot him. The 115grb Berger jellied his insides. If I would have been shooting a less explosive bullet I don't think I would have found him? In this situation I feel the bullet over performed!

That's a very common occurrence in my experience from such bullets, when still properly selected for the specific task. They're very forgiving to shot placement errors since they still expand very well and reach out creating very wide wounding and massive trauma. Tougher constructed bullets do indeed struggle with the same type of shot placement errors due to the overall lower amount of expansion and increased penetration. Bullet construction and selection is always key to success.

 

[Canhunter35]

I guess I need to stick my nose into this one if only, "Just Because," I can't remember when I have ever had a bullet failure. There have been a few that didn't exactly do what I wanted them to do, but that was my fault for choosing a bullet that was unsuited for what I was doing, or I as a hunter did not place the proper bullet in the proper place. It's easy to blame the equipment, the bullet or the weather but not so easy to own up to the fact that, "I just screwed up!" A well placed bullet will in fact kill an unsuspecting, or even a spooked animal simply because when it tears through the boiler room it will destroy essential organs that are required to sustain life. Even a badly chosen bullet placed with a good shot will kill. The best of bullets that miss the mark will cause you to have to follow a blood trail. Complaining that the bullet did not go out the other side and blow a big hole simply means that either it was a poor shot or poor bullet selection. A well placed shot with a properly selected bullet will drop the animal in it's tracks and there is no need to have to follow a blood trail. Just Sayin.

So you're agreeing with me? I said it's not a bullet failure if the bullet doesn't exit. Kinda confused about ur post honestly

 

[Ol' Red]

scratch that

 

[WildRose]

Well Wild Rose I will bow to your multitude of animals killed but examining wound tracks in the field is hap hazard at most. Not to denigrate your experiences, but in less than a full necropsy laboratory I would find it hard to do any kind of a determination relating to a supposed bullet failure out in the woods or fields instead of a lab. Our thoughts do not necessarily revert to facts until proven scientifically.

Then you're seriously lacking the necessary foundation to do so.

I don't need a lab to follow the track from impact to exit. If there's any question you run a stick, arrow or even cleaning rod through it.

You can then see exactly how much damage it did on the way through.

I am a scientist, I hold a master's in field biology not to mention being a Ranger Medic.

I know wounds, I know what causes them, I've looked at many thousands of them on humans, game, and varmints.

Also, when you actually recover a bullet, you know exactly what it did.,

When many people on numerous animals had repeated instances where a particular bullet penciled through instead of opening it was quickly determined that there was a slight flaw in the manufacturing QC process. The Maker admitted the problem and suggested ways people could prevent it by slightly modifying the tips and cavity.

Most of life happens outside of labs and universities and when qualified people tell you a bullet failed and explain the how and why it's a good thing to listen to them.

When they show you the recovered bullets and photos of the wounds, you don't need a PhD to determine what happened.

Terminal ballistics on game is not something any University is going to fund studies on anytime soon so this is what we have.

 

[Teri Anne]

I guess you haven't seen a coues take off with both front shoulders broken and lungs destroyed, he ran almost 100 yds. 270 Win with a 130gr Partition just over 200 yds.

Did not need to track it and no follow up shot either, knew where he landed. The bullet did its job as expected and designed. Some animals simply will not drop in their tracks even with well placed shots and with the right bullet for the occasion.

Animals are a lot like Humans. Shot where they have no reason to still be standing, yet they do and may even fight back although they are dead and don't know it. That was one of the major requirements for the 1911, knock them down or throw them back which it did well until you got the humanitarians involved. Across the pond had occasion to check out this theory. It did work just as advertised. Same goes for rifles and deer. I need say no more.

 

[Teri Anne]

Then you're seriously lacking the necessary foundation to do so.

I don't need a lab to follow the track from impact to exit. If there's any question you run a stick, arrow or even cleaning rod through it.

You can then see exactly how much damage it did on the way through.

I am a scientist, I hold a master's in field biology not to mention being a Ranger Medic.

I know wounds, I know what causes them, I've looked at many thousands of them on humans, game, and varmints.

Also, when you actually recover a bullet, you know exactly what it did.,

When many people on numerous animals had repeated instances where a particular bullet penciled through instead of opening it was quickly determined that there was a slight flaw in the manufacturing QC process. The Maker admitted the problem and suggested ways people could prevent it by slightly modifying the tips and cavity.

Most of life happens outside of labs and universities and when qualified people tell you a bullet failed and explain the how and why it's a good thing to listen to them.

When they show you the recovered bullets and photos of the wounds, you don't need a PhD to determine what happened.

Terminal ballistics on game is not something any University is going to fund studies on anytime soon so this is what we have.

Well I for one am not going to argue with your esteemed qualifications and experience. As mentioned I have never had a bullet fail. It might not do exactly what it was supposed to do but 99% of the time it was because the bullet was not placed properly when it impacted the animal. Argue if you must, but how many animals did you get to check....that got away?

 

[WildRose]

So you're agreeing with me? I said it's not a bullet failure if the bullet doesn't exit. Kinda confused about ur post honestly

That depends on the bullet, what it hit, at what angle and how it was designed.

Lot's of variables there. If I put a 375 Solid into the shoulders of Wildebeest, or Buffalo up close and it doesn't exit, I know something is wrong. It didn't track straight through as designed.

If it turns 90 degrees instead of tracking straight through, I know the bullet failed to perform as designed even though it was used exactly as intended.

Now if I put that same bullet through an Oryx and that Oryx runs a couple of miles before cratering, I know it also performed exactly as intended even though the Oryx did not die quickly.

Conversely if I shoot a Hornady Amax out of my 300Rum and it blows up on impact horribly wounding the animal, that's my fault for using a target bullet in a hunting application.

When I see a bonded bullet flatten out the size of a quarter or half dollar on impact with bone and turn 90degrees or more I know the bullet failed to perform as designed.

If I hit a deer with a Nosler Partition in the ribs and close range I know that bullet will pencil straight through and I'm probably going to have to anchor it with another shot or do some tracking.

If that bullet however blows up shallow when it hits the humerus or scapula, I know it failed to perform as intended.

No shooter, rifle, caliber, cartridge, or bullet is perfect and none of them are designed to work right in every imaginable circumstance.

We improve our odds greatly by using the bullet as it's designed and pick our POI accordingly and hit it, but every once in a rare while, they just don't do what they are supposed to do.

 

[WildRose]

Well I for one am not going to argue with your esteemed qualifications and experience. As mentioned I have never had a bullet fail. It might not do exactly what it was supposed to do but 99% of the time it was because the bullet was not placed properly when it impacted the animal. Argue if you must, but how many animals did you get to check....that got away?

Well you really can't. Few people can and I'm fortunate in that.

As I said, bullet failures are actually very rare and as I stated most things we blame bullets for end up being a poorly placed shot, a complete miss, choosing the wrong bullet for the application, or simply not using it as designed.

As I said, again, You were mostly, but not entirely correct. Bullet failures are real. Rare, but very, very real.

 

[Teri Anne]

So you're agreeing with me? I said it's not a bullet failure if the bullet doesn't exit. Kinda confused about ur post honestly

A bullet that expends it's energy in the target animal and remains inside after expending all of it's energy therein has not failed. It has done it's job, using the wound channel and impact energy to subdue the animal. If it blasts on through coming out the other side, either the shooter missed their intended mark or there was a problem with bullet performance not related to the bullet but the bullet selected for that animal.

 

[WildRose]

A bullet that expends it's energy in the target animal and remains inside after expending all of it's energy therein has not failed. It has done it's job, using the wound channel and impact energy to subdue the animal. If it blasts on through coming out the other side, either the shooter missed their intended mark or there was a problem with bullet performance not related to the bullet but the bullet selected for that animal.

Only if that is what it was designed to do.,

 

[Mike D Texas]

A bullet that expends it's energy in the target animal and remains inside after expending all of it's energy therein has not failed. It has done it's job, using the wound channel and impact energy to subdue the animal. If it blasts on through coming out the other side, either the shooter missed their intended mark or there was a problem with bullet performance not related to the bullet but the bullet selected for that animal.

I don't subscribe to that theory at all. Most bullets when they pass through have expended most of the energy they were ever going to and cause terminal damage.
I personally WANT a pass through; 2 holes to leak blood are better for those shots that may be less than perfect.

 

[WildRose]

I don't subscribe to that theory at all. Most bullets when they pass through have expended most of the energy they were ever going to and cause terminal damage.
I personally WANT a pass through; 2 holes to leak blood are better for those shots that may be less than perfect.

Two holes makes for a much better blood trail than one.

 

[WYOHTF]

you see a lot of complaints about the old Barnes X. if there is one thing we learned from Hammer bullets is that monos need to be spun fast and wondering if it is a stability issue more than a bullet issue.
anybody here ever run the Barnes X in fast twist barrels?
after reading through this tread and thinking i am starting to wonder if we are having stability issues instead of just bullet issues especially with some if the older chamberings that normally come with slow twist barrels

If I missed it, I apologize. But at about page five i started wondering why no one was bringing up the rate of spin.
We all shoot a wide range of different calibers and cartridge designs and bullets with game being shot at so many different ranges across the board. If I am going to do my do diligence, I need to understand when and where that bullet is going to start and stop.
And I agree with not canning a bullet choice because of a first time experience.
I got about 7 more pages of this to finish, thanks for sharing guys. This is the good stuff

 

[WildRose]

If I missed it, I apologize. But at about page five i started wondering why no one was bringing up the rate of spin.
We all shoot a wide range of different calibers and cartridge designs and bullets with game being shot at so many different ranges across the board. If I am going to do my do diligence, I need to understand when and where that bullet is going to start and stop.
And I agree with not canning a bullet choice because of a first time experience.
I got about 7 more pages of this to finish, thanks for sharing guys. This is the good stuff

Well, slow spin doesnt' cause bullet failures. Fast twists and especially at high velocity can however rip a thin jacketed bullet to pieces.

Mono's are longer than comparable cup/core bullets by 10% or more. Thus, you need to go at least one rev faster than for a cup/core bullet of comparable wt