bullet expansion test results

[yorke-1]

I have to agree. This is a 6.5 130 Berger AR Hybrid removed from a very dead elk.

What was your impact velocity? If I know how fast that bullet was going I can see if I can duplicate the performance. The bergers have done well with impact velocities over about 2000 fps and that bullet looks like it was either going pretty fast or it hit bone.

I have a bunch of the 130 ar hybrids, so I can use those to try and calibrate my tests to match your results.

 

[tbrice23]

What was your impact velocity? If I know how fast that bullet was going I can see if I can duplicate the performance. The bergers have done well with impact velocities over about 2000 fps and that Bullets looks little it was either going pretty fast or it hit bone.

I have a bunch of the 130 ar hybrids, so I can use those to try and calibrate my tests to match your results.

Good morning,
I'm positive Mr. Broz has had more kills with Berger Hybrids than several of us put together, he has extensive experience and documentation on Hybrid terminal performance.

 

[Broz]

What was your impact velocity? If I know how fast that bullet was going I can see if I can duplicate the performance. The bergers have done well with impact velocities over about 2000 fps and that bullet looks like it was either going pretty fast or it hit bone.

I have a bunch of the 130 ar hybrids, so I can use those to try and calibrate my tests to match your results.

That bullet was from one of my editors. It was from data he gathered when we reviewed and tested the 130 AR Hybrid on my website. I am sure the MV was significantly higher than you impact velocity of below 1800. If I remember right is was only a 175 yard shot from a 6.5 CreedMoor.

Here is an Antelope I took at 1285 with a Berger 215 Hybrid. Impact velocity was under 1700 fps, about 1680 to be exact. I will also show the exit hole which was golf ball sized. Evidence was found internally to prove fragmenting and expansion. Wound channel was straight through.

Last spring in Idaho I took my spring bear at 1702 yards with a 300 Berger OTM Hybrid. Impact velocity was 1648 fps. Here are my notes from that shot. "The 300 Berger entered in the crease behind the near shoulder with an impact velocity of 1648 feet per second, perfect elevation and a caliber sized entrance just clipping the back of the near leg muscle. Soon after entry, about 1 1/2″ in the wound channel was large enough for my index finger. The big Berger then traveled through the bear's vitals, and out the far side at the base of the neck, clipping the far shoulder with an exit hole in the hide close to 1″. Awesome low velocity expansion"

2016 Idaho Black Bear Exit 1702

I too appreciate the work you are doing. I have followed it for a while. It was not until you yourself suggested the possibility that the medium was not offering real results, that I spoke. I offer my data only to help you and others to understand that bullets, all bullets, will perform differently in different material / medium. I test mine on game 99% of the time. We took 113 elk over the last two seasons. The majority with Berger Hybrids. Our results greatly differ from yours in your test medium you chose. That does not mean to say your testing is fruitless. Not at all. But to suggest that the real terminal performance data is in the field, under real world conditions, on game.

Respectfully.
Jeff

 

[Rich Coyle]

Jeff,

Cngrats on the successful hunts.

"Impact velocity was under 1700 fps, about 1680 to be exact." And "Impact velocity was 1648 fps."

Have you actually chronoed those load at those distances? If not I respectfully challenge your precise velocities. That is unless you had those animals staked and a chronograph in your line of sight immediately prior to impact. Maybe I'm being presumptuous.

 

[bigngreen]

Any ballistic app give you the impact velocity and if it wasn't right at the kind of ranges Jeff was at he would have missed had they been of by any significant amount.

 

[Rich Coyle]

Any ballistic app give you the impact velocity and if it wasn't right at the kind of ranges Jeff was at he would have missed had they been of by any significant amount.

What is "significant amount"?

 

[12valvetater]

Is this really even worth discussing? Ballistic coefficients have already been established for these bullets specifically so we don't need to have a chronograph at different points along the flight path. Arguing for the sake of arguing doesn't make any of us want to listen to what you have to say.

 

[bigngreen]

What is "significant amount"?

At 1285 30fps will make a .7 MOA difference and at 1285 that would be well above significant so the prediction is probably "precise" when you pin wheel a goat at 1285.

 

[bigngreen]

Is this really even worth discussing? Ballistic coefficients have already been established for these bullets specifically so we don't need to have a chronograph at different points along the flight path. Arguing for the sake of arguing doesn't make any of us want to listen to what you have to say.

Bingo!

 

[Rich Coyle]

At 1285 30fps will make a .7 MOA difference and at 1285 that would be well above significant so the prediction is probably "precise" when you pin wheel a goat at 1285.

Thanks. My ignoance can be overcome only by this kind of information.

 

[Broz]

Jeff,

Cngrats on the successful hunts.

"Impact velocity was under 1700 fps, about 1680 to be exact." And "Impact velocity was 1648 fps."

Have you actually chronoed those load at those distances? If not I respectfully challenge your precise velocities. That is unless you had those animals staked and a chronograph in your line of sight immediately prior to impact. Maybe I'm being presumptuous.

I have only chronographed to 1000 yards plus on a few occasions to verify published BC's. So the answer is no. My impact velocities come from using the Applied Ballistic solver where Coriolis, and aerodynamic jump are part of the firing solution. My rifles run very low ES usually in the single digits. B&G and I left my bench with the rifle I killed the bear with at 1702 and inputted exact data from the rifle and optic. Then we tested the dial ups on a 12" plate at 800, 1200, 1600 and just over a mile. Two days in a row without fudging numbers. The results were every shot landed center mass for elevation two days consecutively.

I test all year shooting well over 1000 yards. Then I make a cold bore heart shot on a bear at 1702 yards. This is a great indication that the AB solver and the drag curve used are spot on. That is where my confidence comes from to believe the impact velocity the solver gives me is very accurate.

Hope this helps.
Jeff

 

[Rich Coyle]

I like it. I shoot almost every day, but my longest kill was an off hand shot for you! It was 527 yards.

 

[yorke-1]

That bullet was from one of my editors. It was from data he gathered when we reviewed and tested the 130 AR Hybrid on my website. I am sure the MV was significantly higher than you impact velocity of below 1800. If I remember right is was only a 175 yard shot from a 6.5 CreedMoor.

Here is an Antelope I took at 1285 with a Berger 215 Hybrid. Impact velocity was under 1700 fps, about 1680 to be exact. I will also show the exit hole which was golf ball sized. Evidence was found internally to prove fragmenting and expansion. Wound channel was straight through.

Last spring in Idaho I took my spring bear at 1702 yards with a 300 Berger OTM Hybrid. Impact velocity was 1648 fps. Here are my notes from that shot. entered in the crease behind the near shoulder with an impact velocity of 1648 feet per second, perfect elevation and a caliber sized entrance just clipping the back of the near leg muscle. Soon after entry, about 1 1/2″ in the wound channel was large enough for my index finger. The big Berger then traveled through the bear's vitals, and out the far side at the base of the neck, clipping the far shoulder with an exit hole in the hide close to 1″. Awesome low velocity expansion"

I too appreciate the work you are doing. I have followed it for a while. It was not until you yourself suggested the possibility that the medium was not offering real results, that I spoke. I offer my data only to help you and others to understand that bullets, all bullets, will perform differently in different material / medium. I test mine on game 99% of the time. We took 113 elk over the last two seasons. The majority with Berger Hybrids. Our results greatly differ from yours in your test medium you chose. That does not mean to say your testing is fruitless. Not at all. But to suggest that the real terminal performance data is in the field, under real world conditions, on game.

Respectfully.
Jeff

I really appreciate you taking the time to respond. I do agree that the Bergers have historically performed better on game than they have in my tests. The setup I'd really like to use for testing would be to suspend the leather in something like a 55 gallon drum full of water. I think that would be a more accurate representation actual on game performance. The problem is that I need my setup to be portable.

I honestly have relatively limited experience with on game performance compared to many folks. For that matter, it sounds like you're witness to more big game kills in one year than I will be in a life time. I typically only take one animal per year, either one deer or one elk. Add to that the fact that I've only ever recovered 2 bullets from the 19 big game animals I've taken over the years. I'm a long range shooter but a short range hunter so almost all of my shots are complete pass throughs. For that reason, I'm all for having others post up their recovered bullets to compare them to what I've come up with. With the exception of the Bergers, more of the bullets I've shot have matched up pretty well with ones recovered from game.

Andrew

 

[Broz]

Thank Andrew, To explain my situation, it stems from a ranch I manage and working with FWP and local resident hunters to control elk herd numbers. The large number years are from management hunts and most over our hayfields. Some times 3 elk per evening. So I saw the opportunity to test bullets and I started logging data. So I get to see how others bullet choices perform, as well as my choices. In many cases the hunters choose to use my rifles as the shots can be from 400 to 800 on most hunts.

I have built a few bullet / medium traps too. I used wet potting soil (the fluffy stuff) and 1/2" plywood to simulate bone placed at intervals. All contained in a cardboard box with elk hide in front. Still the results didn't match what we saw, or recovered from game.

I think what I have learned after all these years of so many kills each year is.
1: No two shots are ever the same, angle, impact vel., meat, bone, lung, gut, animal muscle structure and condition...etc.
2: Impact velocity is the biggest factory to determine how a bullet works.
3: Tip design I have actually found that some bullets work better with more of a void in the hollow point. Take the 215 Hybrid. .400" of empty nose till you get to lead. I and many many others have seen this bullet kill elk quickly even when off the mark some.
4: I have seen the solids perform very well inside a fairly high impact velocity band. But my experience is if you get out there a ways you could very easily double lung an elk and only leave a 3/8" hole or less through two lungs. Many elk will act like they were never even hit like this and could take hours to expire while they travel.

I choose to use a bullet that wreaks havoc with vitals. Huge oil leaks whether internal or external, will stop even the largest of motors. So I look for the performance I prefer at the longest distances. That's where I need the most help from my bullet. Inside that the destruction just becomes greater.

But in the end, I have said many times. Know your bullet of choice. Know how it works and at what impact velocities. Then use that knowledge for placement and shot distance to gain all the advantage you can. A follow up shot is never guaranteed.

Jeff