Body Die or FL Die - Preference and Why?

[BrentM]

Not sure who did what testing and when to debunk the concentricity issue but I noticed anything past .005 was problematic. Studies and personal findings showed under .005 was preferred for best results. I've just stuck with that and worked to making it happen. I'm generally more concerned with neck tension problems and focus my time there these days.

Straight ammo doesn't really shoot any better than ammo with . 002 run-out. Your ammo is not what lines the bullet up with the rifling. The freebore does this and the bullet hitting the leade angle helps straighten it to some degree. The straight ammo being more accurate has been debunked by so many match shooters that it's just a fact now. I'm not saying straight ammo hurts anything but the extra time spent on it is not helping. Unless your crooked ammo is worse than . 002 which just about any die can achieve.
Shep

 

[Tree Farmer]

Straight ammo probably doesn't improve my rifle's accuracy to any large degree, as far as I can tell, but it is a physcological crutch. So I do pay attention to runout and am satisfied when it runs .001 or less. If you can't shoot into the next county, quality reloads are still rewarding just because.

 

[L.Sherm]

Straight ammo doesn't really shoot any better than ammo with . 002 run-out. Your ammo is not what lines the bullet up with the rifling. The freebore does this and the bullet hitting the leade angle helps straighten it to some degree. The straight ammo being more accurate has been debunked by so many match shooters that it's just a fact now. I'm not saying straight ammo hurts anything but the extra time spent on it is not helping. Unless your crooked ammo is worse than . 002 which just about any die can achieve.
Shep

I believe having the chamber concentric to the bore is more important than a couple thou runout. But I'm sure theres a point were runout does start effecting accuracy.

 

[bigedp51]

About 76,000 rounds, or about $26,000 worth. I came out smelling like a rose

CatShooter old buddy, now tell the forum members why you had to get rid of your saddle. Or how you can't get rid of the cat urine smell in leather. Your saddle didn't smell like a rose when it got wet.

Bazinga

 

[MagnumManiac]

This is my tale...
I shoot F-class with 264WM & 300WM, I have used body dies, bushing neck dies, bushing FL dies and non-bushing FL dies/neck dies.
None were perfect, bushings gave me donuts and I hate turning necks more than necessary.
I then discovered mandrels and Forster FL HONED NECK dies. I work out what neck OD I require and order the HONED NECK die.
I use the expander to get 0.00" neck movement, then use a mandrel to get the desired amount of squish. I do not ever move the neck or shoulder more than .003" in either direction, unless required. One barrel I have prefers .004" neck squish, why I do not know, but thus is hard to keep perfectly straight.
I have found with my 'hard' brass that this technique gives me the straightest cases I can make. My 'soft' brass is never quite as straight no matter the technique used.
Hope this helps.

Cheers.

 

[25WSM]

I would think . 005 would be noticable. Like I said in my post . 002 is easily done on regular dies. As LSherm stated the chamber being concentric to the bore is much more important. This is a variable that most guys can not change. I have done my own testing on straight ammo and have found no improvement once you get to . 002 of straight. I can tell you hall of fame benchrest shooters have tried machines that made their ammo basically zero run-out and after testing said why waste the time they shot the same as my normal run-out ammo. This was from a hall of fame 100 and 200 yard BR shooter that has won the kelblys match's several times. I've talked with several world record holders in 1000 yard BR and it's the same. The tune with the best powder charge and best seating depth is way more important. Then the neck tension. It probably feels good to make your ammo straight as possible and it is something to take pride in. Every little thing you do adds to the quality of your ammo. Bench rest shooters are a results driven bunch. If they are all doing it then you can be sure it works. If it didn't they would change in a heartbeat. In the end do what makes you happy. That's the reason we do this sport. When your no longer happy doing this play golf instead. Then you will remember how happy you were shooting. I played golf since 4th grade until my back surgeries. The better you get the more frustrating it became.
Shep

 

[25WSM]

I have had good luck with the forster honed dies also. But it removes the tension variable for tuning. But once you know what size works best they are great dies. Whidden will tell you that their non bushing dies make straighter brass. I have not had donut problems with bushing dies. In fact I don't get donuts with bushing dies. I set the bushing . 050 up from the junction of the neck shoulder. The one piece dies that are honed size all the way to the junction is what caused donuts for me. I don't worry about donuts anyhow because my bullets never go that far when seating.
Shep

 

[Stevenstl86]

My Redding competition dies have done well for me. Maybe it helps that it's a custom made chamber? I have only had to bump the shoulder back every 3rd firing in a .308. Maybe it's all in my head?

 

[25WSM]

I bump . 003 Everytime to make certain the brass runs fast and easy. I never want to feel the bolt closing on the brass. This will absolutely cause verticle in your load.
Shep

 

[Stevenstl86]

Can you get a Redding competition neck die to do both neck size and push the shoulder back?

 

[25WSM]

Problem with trying that is that if you get the die far enough down to move the shoulder back it doesn't just push the shoulder. The body shoulder junction will expand also. The die has enough clearence to not size and the brass will push out into this clearence. Now you have a problem getting this in your chamber. The vast majority of br shooters full length size brass. I don't know one person that neck sizes at our matches. It just doesn't make the most accurate ammo. After 2 or 3 firings brass that is neck sized no longer fits properly and will need to be set back a few thou to fit. The Forster neck size bump dies don't work either because of the expansion at the body shoulder junction previously mentioned. There is absolutely no good reason to not full length size brass. Unless you just don't have a full length die. In that case better just go get one and be done. I know there are guys on here that argue that neck sizing is best. They can do whatever they think best. And staying in the past may be best for them.
Shep

 

[nicholasjohn]

The Lee collet neck sizer by virtue of design induces zero runout.

That makes it my first choice over any other neck sizing option or system available.

The body die is it's natural companion.

I have a couple of calibers for which the collet neck sizer is not available, neither is the body die. A good polish on the expander with 1200 grit and a fine oil smooths the neck sizing noticeably.

Whatever die system you choose, Imperial Dry Neck lube will go well with it.

Lee will custom make a collet neck sizing die for you. Just send them a couple of cartridge cases that were fired in the chamber you want to neck-size for. I did that many years ago, for the 30-06 Ackley cartridge. The die works beautifully.

 

[25WSM]

All the collet dies should do an ai case with zero modification. If they make a 6.5 Remington mag or 264 win mag they could be cut off in a lathe to the proper length and not need an adapter.
Shep

 

[nicholasjohn]

I would think . 005 would be noticable. Like I said in my post . 002 is easily done on regular dies. As LSherm stated the chamber being concentric to the bore is much more important. This is a variable that most guys can not change. I have done my own testing on straight ammo and have found no improvement once you get to . 002 of straight. I can tell you hall of fame benchrest shooters have tried machines that made their ammo basically zero run-out and after testing said why waste the time they shot the same as my normal run-out ammo. This was from a hall of fame 100 and 200 yard BR shooter that has won the kelblys match's several times. I've talked with several world record holders in 1000 yard BR and it's the same. The tune with the best powder charge and best seating depth is way more important. Then the neck tension. It probably feels good to make your ammo straight as possible and it is something to take pride in. Every little thing you do adds to the quality of your ammo. Bench rest shooters are a results driven bunch. If they are all doing it then you can be sure it works. If it didn't they would change in a heartbeat. In the end do what makes you happy. That's the reason we do this sport. When your no longer happy doing this play golf instead. Then you will remember how happy you were shooting. I played golf since 4th grade until my back surgeries. The better you get the more frustrating it became.
Shep

All these endeavors in which we compete against ourselves are like that. When someone gets pretty good at his chosen game and he wants to be better. When he achieves excellence, he will keep cutting it finer & finer, looking for perfection. I'm still trying to figure out how good is good enough to enjoy the game, and not drive myself crazy ……….. or go broke chasing what is unachievable.