Bigger is better theory or truth?

[javman]

So I guess the what the old time gun writers used to say still holds true! Shot placement, and it seems sectional density seems to hold true! The rage is BC and folks have forgotten about SD.

 

[chilli42]

Varmint Hunter

The 162 gr Amax held up to the STW velocity even on the whitetail shoulder?

ive been considering the Hornady 168 gr ELDm Superformance but was worried the lightly constructed bullet wouldn't hold up even at 308 Win velocity of mid to upper 2700 range.

Steve

You are right about your concern. I shoot a 308 with the Superformance bullet. If the range is fairly short (under 100 yards) the bullet falls apart. This with a Mule Deer. The the bigger pieces usually don't make it past the skin on the far side. That said that deer is on the ground in 20 or 30 yards. If I were to chase larger game with the 308 it would not be with this bullet.

 

[mindcrime]

Anyone reloading a 30 caliber, needs to try the Sierra 165 gr HPBT (2140).......it truly has explosive performance and dumps all the energy on the innards of any deer, even when it passes through both shoulders. I've seen more one shot DOAs than any other bullet that I've tried. I even reloaded them for a Marlin 336 in 30-30 Win for a friends first shot and it was even a hammer at lower velocities!

https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2016/...unting-bullet/gameking-and-prohunter-bullets/

 

[HntWhtTail]

There was an extensive study done on why some animals drop and some run away. I believe it was in Africa autopsys were performed on numerous dont quote me but I think 500 animals. it was decided that if the blood is flowing towards the brain when the hydrostatic shock hits it causes a stroke the animal falls over dead (drt) if the blood is flowing away from the brain or there is insufficient hydrostatic shock to force it that direction the animal runs away. this excludes spine shots which shouldn't count as the animal is not drt it is prt. imho this is why high shoulder shots are so effective. large amounts of body fluid and a short path directly to the brain heart shots as well but the shoulder absorbs much of the energy decreasing transfer to the heart.

 

[5.56×250]

Only magic whitetail drt caliber I've used is the 270win with 130 coreloks or ballistic tips. I cant count how many I drt on double lung shots ! The easy number to remember is all of them. I like the compact nature of the 308 and killed many whitetails with that caliber. Only drt was a huge doe I field judged wrong by 100 yds . I shot her for 300ish and laid the crosshairs right on the horizontal of her back, touched it off, and saw legs pointing up as the fire flash filled my scope. That 18 inch barrel was a flame thrower in last light shots ! She was 220yds and I spined her right behind the shoulder spine juncture. She never wiggled that I could tell. Every other 308 shot deer ran 20 to 75 yards. 270 though ? DRT!

 

[Swiftkill]

Because SPEED kills! On light skin game a bullet that blows up inside the animal delivers hydrostatic damage to a lot of organs. One of the most devastating rounds i ever shot are the Remington 243 80 gr corelokt and soft point. Hollow points for cx woodchucks, soft point on deer. BIGGER is for large animals that need penetration and mass to get to organs. Killing a buffalo requires getting to organs and you may have a slow death but death nonetheless. A Deer's organs are close to their skin, relatively. Not much resistance if you dont hit the shoulder. You want a rapidly expanding bullet. 243. I shot my very first deer with a 300 win mag. A 100 yd running shot, right through the heart. The bullet didnt barely open. Almost the same size hole coming out as going in. Good thing i took the heart out.
I killed a big deer with my 220 Swift 40 gr. Nosler ballistic tip. Broadside, 1 shot, drooped in its tracks. Speed kills!

 

[okie man]

Hydrostatic shock is what makes drt kills! Enough of it to the central nervous system of a deer shuts then down! A bullet can cause great damage to vital organs yet fail to deliver enough shock to shut it down. Those I call dead runners. Then there's bullets that don't provide deep penetration but will expend all its energy to the animal dropping them in their tracks. The down side to these is they typically will leave lots of fragments in the animal!

 

[James L Holzhauer]

Shot placement is the single most important thing. I shot a sable trough the heart with a .375 Ruger and he still ran thirty yards. So what. Dead is dead.

 

[CNY Yote Hunter]

Well, in NY State my uncle had a lease on some old oil land.
NY is a slug gun only (idk, might be some counties in the Adirondacks that can use rifle)
Any way, lung shot a buck with a 12 gauge slug through both lungs.
He ran up a hill (steep grade ravine) for about 100 yards.

Those slugs make a half dollar sized hole.

Just saying.

Big hole is not the only factor.

He was dead for sure, just wasn't convinced of it yet.

PS, it was this experience that has ruined every TV show and movie since.
People get hit once and drop like rocks.
I'm always going..."wait, he couldn't get even one shot off before dying...really?"

I live in upstate NY, the county I'm in is slug gun only still but every county around me is rifle. More and more county's are opening rifle for use. I used to think a 12 gauge was the best option for deer until I started shooting them with a 243 and 7mm08 and now the slug gun sits in the closet

 

[Gregger]

When i was young all we used in our 30-06's and 308 was Remington core lock 180 gr round nose soft points. Those bullets killed everything we pointed them at with aplomb(whitetail, black bear, coyotes, feral cats.lol) they are not designed for long range but they sure work.

 

[Gregger]

I live in upstate NY, the county I'm in is slug gun only still but every county around me is rifle. More and more county's are opening rifle for use. I used to think a 12 gauge was the best option for deer until I started shooting them with a 243 and 7mm08 and now the slug gun sits in the closet

I grew up in Clinton County, thats as far upstate as you can get.

 

[340Wby-4-everything]

Agreed! Most would highly advise against a .22lr vs a polar bear as well but if you go ask the eskimos that's a round they use all to often with the intended results.. I agree with the right caliber for the right game, just wanted opinion on why the bigger guns on the smaller game dont always give better results. There are some videos out there where a 50 bmg are used on deer, the deer run off after good hits then you see a video of a girl shooting a 243 at an elk 670 yards away that drops on the spot...

Funny story - my cousin did Marine winter survival in Greenland, their guide was 75-80 yr old native carrying a 22LR. Said that was his Polar bear gun. My cousin asked how does that work, he said either thru the eye or thru the earhole. My cousin says what if you miss. Native, says then gun goes to next person in the family and you go to heaven. Said that gun had been handed down several times over 100 yrs because of a miss. Ouch.

 

[86bowhunter]

Well to answer your question in the title you have to consider that the saying has been around forever. In those days we had inferior bullet construction. General rifle accuracy was not on par with today's standards. With more open sight shooting than optic. So when the saying bigger is better came along people were using it as a crutch to less than ideal shooting. Hit him in the *** with a big enough bullet and you'll get him.
There was no poly tipped, controlled expansion, high bc etc etc bullets that we have today. The options were heavy lead copper jacketed bullets that were on par with a lead ball or a frangible "varmint" style bullet.

Jump forward in time now we have limitless options and a bullet for every scenario and application.

That being said and this applies to then and now. Different caliber bullets, weights and velocities all react differently under the same circumstances. Shock and trauma is what kills in all instances. Which is why a fast 243 bullet in a particular spot can anchor a deer. While on the other side 9f the spectrum we've all heard stories of people saying they shot a deer in the heart with a 300 win and it still ran 150yds and they can't believe it.

Me in particular I've been fortunate enough to have the means to have different rifle set ups for different purposes. In my long range guns I want heavy for caliber bullets that are going to shed some weight and transfer energy at distance. Varmint rifle I want fast explosive bullets that work for soft skinned animals. Inside 400yds I want something that will rock his world and get that DRT result. Which takes shock and trauma. We have those options nowadays where 40 years ago you had one or two.

All that to say that in today's world you can set up your rifle for your particular circumstances.

For the guys that want to shoot for the ribs and heart area so the dont damage the shoulders (which is perfectly fine). Deer are going to run more often than not. If you like the high shoulder neck area shot you're going to get more DRT results. That's just the way it is.

Anyway that's just my two cents.

 

[5gauss]

I worked with many veterinarians who would tell me an animal hit through both lungs is dead but will go until the oxygen to the brain is insufficient...so say 5-15seconds depending on how big the hole is. Heart can be gone..does not matter as long as oxygen is still in the brain blood. A very fast well constructed bullet going very fast creates more hydrostatic pressure/damage/shock so they will not go as far, and if you happen to hit a shoulder it will go on through and not "blow up" on the big bones (happens a lot with standard factory loaded bullets...use premium) I have hit big Mule Deer at 300 yds with .257 Weatherby 110 gr Accubond both lungs and went 2 steps. Over 3000ft/sec (not sure at 300 vel) Damage to lungs was severe. Shot placement is key....