Best methods to create low ES and SD hand loads with the easiest and simplest reloading work up.

[Greyfox]

We all like to talk about our groups and how well a rifle may shoot or how small our groups may be but what about all the work it takes to get there. So what I'm looking at is ES under 20 and a SD of 10 or better.
For me this can be hard to get to the above standards with just standard reloading. I would like to hear what people have found that make a game changer in there reloading. Was it annealing the case necks every time, was it using bushing dies, was it trimming the outer neck diameter thickness, was it sorting brass, primers, bullet weight, bullet ogive length and the list goes on.

For me I like to buy Bergers bullets even though I will admit I have been shooting a lot of Hornady lately. I think Bergers are the most consistent (just my opinion). I don't sort anything.
I clean my cases in a nut shell media, I FL size bumping back the shoulder length about 1 to 2 thousands. I seat or try to seat the bullets to a consistent Ogive length. I don't have a good annealer but I try and anneal cases about every 3 firings. I weigh each powder charge on and RCBS charge master and then over to a balance beam to always double check my powder loads. I only use Federal match 210, or 215 primers, or BR2s. I use a VLD neck case reamer before seating bullets and I also will take the bur out of the primer pocket (I forget the term). It's a process which i did not put in order but everyone get the ideal. Not a whole lot of work but I still find it hard for a 10 shot string to keep in that 20 ES and 10 SD. Lately I've been backing off the powder charge thinking that speed is not everything. I usually push my loads and I shoot for sub MOA at 200 yards. I like to see .5MOA or better at 100 yards. But this brings me back to my reloading I still will see higher ES over a 10 shot string. I know there are other factors that can contribute to this like outside environment, soaking a round in a hot chamber, dirty barrel, etc, etc. But lets here some of the game changers you have found that really helped deliver those excellent numbers.

Overall, you reloading process is quite similar to my own. The spec that I generally shoot for with both my LRH hunting, and PRS/competition loads is sub .5MOA/3-5shot groups, ES less then 12fPS/SD<7, and a minimum of 100 shots fired between cleaning. After several years of getting results similar to what you describe, paying struck attention to the following aspects enabled me to break the barrier and reach these specs:

-Use a viable chronograph, and pay strict attention to set-up parameters. This includes working with the Lab Radar or Magnetospeed.....small details matter!
-Powder/primer choice. I will run charge weight ladders using a chronograph. Charge weights that fall in the region that produces an average of <6FPS/.1gr of powder are used. This charge weight region must also produce the accuracy standard.
-Bullet run-out is kept to <.002" with consistent/light neck tension(.0015"). I'm probably "odd man out" on this, but I will rarely anneal my brass(Lapua, Norma)....for under 5-10 firings. IMO, it changes the surface structure of the brass, effecting tension of the bullet. I don't overwork my brass in the sizing process, keeping it under.006" from fired to sized neck. I also will clean with corn cob or walnut media and leave a carbon film in the inside of the neck.
-Bullet seating depth tuning can influence "both" accuracy and velocity characteristic. I will also try to maximize the bearing surface of the bullet and neck bearing surface. I will check all new lots of bullets, brass, and powder. When feasible, I will purchase sufficient quantity to last the expected barrel life.
-I think it goes without saying that the quality of the barrel and action(particularly the striker force/consistency) can make a difference.
I certainly wouldn't claim all these practices to be gospel, or that all are necessary to get good results....but they work for me.

 

[Wachsmann]

"with consistent/light neck tension(.0015")."

So I seen someone else post this. Are you talking about the amount the die sized the neck down after firing or expands it back out. Or is the brass thickness on the neck. So far I have basically used Redding FL sizer dies. I think in the 6.5x284 they give me about a 292 neck size. I have never really checked how much difference it is between fired brass and unfired. But I have notices at times that bullets seat different or the amount of tension on the bullet as the press ram is going down. I have tried to mark some of these rounds to see if this changed anything. An the light carbon or dust film on the case necks I also leave it in as well. I was doing some water media cleaning a it made the brass all nice and pretty but the feel of the bullet seating changed a lot. As well as the numbers. I went back to the dry media or if I do water clean after they are completely dry I will polish them back in the dry corn cob just to get the dust back in the necks. I also thought about graphite to try and simulate the dust in the necks..

 

[Shootin4fun]

100 yd 3 shot group( I know not that far but developing load) es.9 sd.6 2688 ft/s 260 rem5r Gen ll Factory M700 Rem. 24" barrel...Just keep experimenting. Off set was on purpose to keep bull from getting obscured with holes and aiming dot.
View attachment 153617

Wow! My SDs are in single digits, some in low single digits but I've never gotten any load to do .6 FPS!

 

[Shootin4fun]

The powder thing after doing this a while I should have written it down but you start noticing how many little small sticks it takes to equal .1 grains and yes I have done the small little tweezers dropping one single kernel at a time to get the powder charge correct.
For as keeping the loads at the low ES/SD numbers I just hate seeing the ones that are over the norm. I also just recently upgraded to a magneto speed so my old chrono may have been a little cause of some of the high or low numbers in a string. It was a
Competition Electronics ProChrono. I know its not the best but it got me really close a lot of times. I would have to verify the loads at long ranges and then adjust the dope. I know its something that we always have to do to check out our loads but consistency is the name of the game. I hoping the magneto speed will be a lot more precise. I see your point about the 1% thing.
Neck turning and annealing. I will probably get an annealer next and start doing this after every firing. Looking at the annealeez for doing the brass. I tried building my own but it needs some refining. Not sure if I wont to try and refine it since Christmas is coming up..

You will find the Magneto to be much more consistent than your readings from the ProChrono. I used the latter for about 8 years and the MS for about 2 now. I never question what I'm getting from the MS.

Annealing- Huge improvement if you load your cases more than twice. I only started that a year ago and the A/B test results were stunning. Got an Aneeleez. Even old brass shot 5 times seems to come back to life. I was clued into it by a guy who owns a 1 mile range and gives training classes when he saw my single fliers in 5 shot 2 hole groups and my velocity readings. "That's not your load, that's not you, that's neck tension" he said. I anneal every other loading now. Sometimes between every load depending on what I'm doing. BTW, Templaque will save you a lot of guesswork and wasted brass. Works every time, quick and easy.

Never neck turned. All off the shelf hunting rifles with sporter barrels. All are capable of .25 MOA groups, so I am not as consistent as my loads.

Chargemaster - No need to get more accurate if you're on a good OCW node. Been using it for 2 years and now weighing is a dream.

Pretty much have gone back to FL sizing after dabbling with neck sizing for a few years. Runout is .001 - .002. Everything is locked down that way. Makes sense that it would be more consistent over generations of loads and the body and shoulder really aren't getting overworked anyway. I reload cases up to 10 times (depending on brass brand and load power) before discarding when primers get too easy to seat.

 

[Shootin4fun]

"with consistent/light neck tension(.0015")."

So I seen someone else post this. Are you talking about the amount the die sized the neck down after firing or expands it back out. Or is the brass thickness on the neck. So far I have basically used Redding FL sizer dies. I think in the 6.5x284 they give me about a 292 neck size. I have never really checked how much difference it is between fired brass and unfired. But I have notices at times that bullets seat different or the amount of tension on the bullet as the press ram is going down. I have tried to mark some of these rounds to see if this changed anything. An the light carbon or dust film on the case necks I also leave it in as well. I was doing some water media cleaning a it made the brass all nice and pretty but the feel of the bullet seating changed a lot. As well as the numbers. I went back to the dry media or if I do water clean after they are completely dry I will polish them back in the dry corn cob just to get the dust back in the necks. I also thought about graphite to try and simulate the dust in the necks..

When you start annealing, you will experience little to no difference in the resistance of the ram when you are seating bullets. If I were competitive I wouldn't share this information. It's real. Anneal.

 

[Shootin4fun]

Regarding velocity measurements- Remember, the more a rifle recoils the more consistent you have to be in the resistance you apply. This is why brakes work so well in improving velocity spread in a light weight 7 mag for example. If you had a 100 lb rifle, it wouldn't matter. If you shoot an 8 lb 22 LR rifle it doesn't matter much. I don't like shooting using a led sled but if you make one immobile and strap a rifle into one so it can possible recoil at all, that would give the most consistent/accurate readings. Tests have been done on this.

 

[milo-2]

"with consistent/light neck tension(.0015")."

So I seen someone else post this. Are you talking about the amount the die sized the neck down after firing or expands it back out. Or is the brass thickness on the neck. So far I have basically used Redding FL sizer dies. I think in the 6.5x284 they give me about a 292 neck size. I have never really checked how much difference it is between fired brass and unfired. But I have notices at times that bullets seat different or the amount of tension on the bullet as the press ram is going down. I have tried to mark some of these rounds to see if this changed anything. An the light carbon or dust film on the case necks I also leave it in as well. I was doing some water media cleaning a it made the brass all nice and pretty but the feel of the bullet seating changed a lot. As well as the numbers. I went back to the dry media or if I do water clean after they are completely dry I will polish them back in the dry corn cob just to get the dust back in the necks. I also thought about graphite to try and simulate the dust in the necks..

How far do you plan on shooting?
Before you get into neck treatments, or bullet seating forces, your powder charge is #1, bullet seat depth #2.
All barrels have pressure ranges(3-5) where they will shoot, called Nodes today. You get into one these, velocity based, and remove vertical dispersion from your grouping, your numbers are going to be tighter. Do you have a place where you can shoot a ladder test at 4-500 yards? Remove vertical at these distances.
I'm not sure if you said you measure loaded rds by COAL or if you use a comparator, you need a comparator to measure base to ogive of your rds. This is especially true on a new chamber. Give us what bullets you shoot and someone can give you a preferred jump number.
You asked a generic question and can or will get over 100 answers. You have gotten solid advice, but remember, people were shooting bughole groups long before bushing dies, expander mandrels, or annealing became popular. You just need to do things the same each time. You mentioned some bullets seat diff than others, learn to cull these, put them on the left side of your ammo box and just shoot consistent ones for groups. You received a lot of info to process, I am just not sure some of it is relevant in your case, YET.

 

[stljc2]

Wow! My SDs are in single digits, some in low single digits but I've never gotten any load to do .6 FPS!

I couldn't believe it either....I didn't know what to think but the next greatest one was also low Sd and Es. So I just left it at that...Maybe I should re-shoot and compare results.

 

[Wachsmann]

How far do you plan on shooting?
Before you get into neck treatments, or bullet seating forces, your powder charge is #1, bullet seat depth #2.
All barrels have pressure ranges(3-5) where they will shoot, called Nodes today. You get into one these, velocity based, and remove vertical dispersion from your grouping, your numbers are going to be tighter. Do you have a place where you can shoot a ladder test at 4-500 yards? Remove vertical at these distances.
I'm not sure if you said you measure loaded rds by COAL or if you use a comparator, you need a comparator to measure base to ogive of your rds. This is especially true on a new chamber. Give us what bullets you shoot and someone can give you a preferred jump number.
You asked a generic question and can or will get over 100 answers. You have gotten solid advice, but remember, people were shooting bughole groups long before bushing dies, expander mandrels, or annealing became popular. You just need to do things the same each time. You mentioned some bullets seat diff than others, learn to cull these, put them on the left side of your ammo box and just shoot consistent ones for groups. You received a lot of info to process, I am just not sure some of it is relevant in your case, YET.

I been shooting and reloading for quite a while and I have gotten loads down to the .5 MOA round that were consistent but at times I had some fliers that I've been trying to get out of the mix. I done both powder and seating depth test before, using the comparative gauges on my ammo, and I have practiced a lot at 1000 to about 1130 yards. I wore out my 6.5X284 Norma having fun shooting rocks at various distances with this gun(4800 rounds down the pipe). I never killed one animal with that gun but it was very consistent at 2880fps 140 berger with a ES of about 15 to 18 FPS. I don't remember the SD the chrono would give me. I now have a 300RUM that I've been working loads for. I have 1 animal under my belt at 761yards with it. What I thought was a good load and was producing good results 2 years ago went totally astray. Same batch of brass, same box of bullets, and same powder. It could be the cases were just getting weak and needed to be trashed. I usually trash them at 5 reloading at max pressure. At least this is what I was calling max. The load I was shooting was...

Hornady 220 grain ELDX seated at mag length I think it was 3.62 COL
87.5 grains of RL26. I believe in the manual this is the limit where you start getting into what hornady considers use extreme caution. It was right on the edge of the red in there loading data.
Federal 215 gold metal match primer
Remington brass

This load shot very well when testing and making a kill on a buck at 761 yards. No tags drawn the next year gun and rounds set in house over a year. (gun was cleaned) I took the gun back out and the rounds were not shooting the same group and my velocity was changing quite a bit.
Just looking back at some of the other stuff I loaded over the years I never seen my ES or SD in the single digits. So I started the thread to try and see what else people do that gets great results. I just watch some videos on the Satterlee load test and I might try to do this to see where some of the nodes are for some of the bullets I have for my 300 RUM. I have on hand the 220 ELDX, 225 ELDM, 230 bergers, 210 bergers, and some 210 Accubond LR's. I'll probably stick to the 220 ELDX for now since I already had some data that worked a mag length on the rifle.
I'll also be using H1000 or Retumbo for powder. RL26 is hard to come by now. I know I need to stick with one bullet, and one powder, but its nice to have some backups as long as I don't wear out the barrel on this one. Its fun to go out and ring steal at 1000 yards and have the confidence you can take an animal at 800 or so. It's nice to have you system tweaked to best of its ability with what you have to work with and you finances allow. Does it make you a better hunter probably not, but it does make you a better shooter and ups your skill level and understanding or learning any thing that we may be able to add to our bag of tools by learning from what other do. For as the load that I took the buck with I think it was at a node but it must be on the edge of one and any other interference with it probably is throwing it out. I'll be testing it with the Satterlee method net and graph out the results to see where the nodes are at.
Really I just need to get a 6.5 Creedmoor and it would solve everything.

 

[Wachsmann]

How many of you use primer sealer on your rounds.

 

[stljc2]

How many of you use primer sealer on your rounds.

Never...Don't even know where to find such a thing.

 

[Dirtrax]

Annealing helps and it's not rocket science. Get off the gun boards and read a few metallurgy articles to get the real scoop. Brass has been around a long time so it's a very well known material by those that study such things. You don't "need" fancy tools.
It isn't the panacea that some claim but it's a worthwhile endeavor. Switching to a mandrel for final neck sizing has made a big difference in consistency for me. Gotta make sure your boolits are straight or nothing helps.

 

[Greyfox]

Annealing helps and it's not rocket science. Get off the gun boards and read a few metallurgy articles to get the real scoop. Brass has been around a long time so it's a very well known material by those that study such things. You don't "need" fancy tools.
It isn't the panacea that some claim but it's a worthwhile endeavor. Switching to a mandrel for final neck sizing has made a big difference in consistency for me. Gotta make sure your boolits are straight or nothing helps.

I don't think anyone is questioning the concept of annealing. Many do question whether it's "always" required to produce precision results. Being an alloy, and subject to variations in formulation, all brass is not created equal. Particularly between rifle brass suppliers. The variations in composition results in differences in hardness, tensile strength, resistance to work hardening, coloration, and other physical properties. Compare the various brands of brass, and these differences can be observed. There are also differences in wall thickness from brand to brand. Add to that, the varying degrees of sizing(working) the brass due to variations in chamber and dye dimensions, and it becomes quite evident that the need or frequency of annealing is not a constant. IMO, the way to determine annealing requirements, is the use performance and results as a guideline. My 6.5x47 using Lapua brass can hold low ES and accuracy for 20+ reloads without annealing. This rifle has tight tolerances. I get 3 firings with my 300WM using Winchester brass before needing to anneal. The combination of thin brass and a generous chamber neck works the brass excessively when sizing. IMO, annealing brass is not a fait accompli.

 

[Dirtrax]

I

I don't think anyone is questioning the concept of annealing. Many do question whether it's "always" required to produce precision results. Being an alloy, and subject to variations in formulation, all brass is not created equal. Particularly between rifle brass suppliers. The variations in composition results in differences in hardness, tensile strength, resistance to work hardening, coloration, and other physical properties. Compare the various brands of brass, and these differences can be observed. There are also differences in wall thickness from brand to brand. Add to that, the varying degrees of sizing(working) the brass due to variations in chamber and dye dimensions, and it becomes quite evident that the need or frequency of annealing is not a constant. IMO, the way to determine annealing requirements, is the use performance and results as a guideline. My 6.5x47 using Lapua brass can hold low ES and accuracy for 20+ reloads without annealing.before I require annealing. This rifle has tight tolerances. I get 3 firings with my 300WM using Winchester brass before needing to anneal. The combination of thin brass and a generous chamber neck works the brass excessively when sizing. IMO, annealing brass is not a fait accompli.

I believe that your last comment was one of my intended points. Regardless the variation in alloys one could assume a reloader is using one or two "brands" of parent brass. It is relatively easy to determine the improvement or lack thereof in the annealing process. 750* is a good starting point that is easily verified by the application of Tempilaq. I'm sure that we can agree that consistency is more important than perfection. What ever the resultant tension one can accommodate the result to produce reliable precision as long as the components remain predictable. The goal as I see it is consistent, reliable grip and release of the boolit. Lapua is a good choice assuming they catalog the product one requires. Otherwise it's not always an option.