Best methods to create low ES and SD hand loads with the easiest and simplest reloading work up.

[blackburbot]

Sounds like lots of work noting everything you have done and parts. Speed of follow up shots makes a difference, some barrels take 3 quick shots to start making changes others take 10. Seen it lots when a load isn't working or scope is out and guys start jacking rounds through a bolt action like it's a semi-auto.
Just general attitude when reloaded for keeping a calm mind goes a long way When I notice that I'm rushed to get 100rounds built for tomorrow morning and it's 9pm. My quality suffers. I don't shoot beside the labradar too much, because I find it's just another distraction as to why my group is looking like that. I have enough to worry about like wind, temperature, my general feeling that day

Slow the reloading process down, try to get all your movements the same. Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. If you stir the powder in the pan because it reads 58.7 instead of 58.6 and you want to make sure it's true.. do it every time. It adds time, but if you are trying to get super low numbers exacting results matter. Because 58.56 to 58.64 read 58.6 on my scale

 

[Don Titus]

The biggest improvements for me came from learning how to do better loads.
1) Being able to measure loads to be XXX off lands. Loading with using comparitor
2) ladder loads to find nodes.
These 2 I think are huge for consistent loads.
3) I have also switched to using the more expensive quality brass which solves the brass sorting and neck turning issues to an extent.

I don't turn necks or get match chambers (yet)

I agree with your conclusions...my experience as well...

 

[eshorebwhntr]

I only use Hodgdon powders for the most part and I usually stick to the standards that others have success with.

In one case I was really struggling with SD ES and fliers. It was in a 30 Hart with Retumbo. Once I switched to H1000 all the fliers went away and I got much more consistent velocities without changing anything else.

Given everything you've listed you're doing I would switch powder to the next faster burn rate in line. Also, barrel quality has a lot to do with it. My experience is that custom barrel usually produce better SD ES than a factory barrel.

 

[cajun]

Use quality brass. Use a powder bullet combination known to produce good results. Be very consistent in your charge weights and bullet seating. Pay attention to neck tension and bullet seating force. If your serious about it get an arbor press and inline dies with a force gauge. Finally decide if all this really necessary for your intended purpose? Sometimes changing primers can make a huge difference.

 

[DUSTY NOGGIN]

all about tension .. turn em anneal em and get mandrels for evey caliber you load for. once you see those results you wont hate buying the bushing dies so much

doenst happen on the first loading (brass is still bent.. but turned ).. once you fire em the second time is when everything lines up again and the magic happens

you still have to pay attention to the the other things , but in my opinion you wont see as much good result with your loading ways . untill you turn em

 

[Kerryt38]

Number one is start with quality brass if you can, Peterson, Lapua, Alpha, Norma. Number 2 is anneal. I have consistently cut my SDs down by 1/3 on factory Winchester Federal and Remington brass by annealing even brand new brass. 3 make sure you have consistent shoulder pressure. You can change your velocity by over 20 FPS just by how much shoulder pressure you have. 4 Try different primers. Just because you are using match primers doesn't mean that is the best for that particular cartridge and load combination. I have often found that standard primers work better in certain cartridge load combinations. 5 Find a good node and adjusting seating depth for accuracy can also improve your SDs.

 

[Hondo64d]

We all like to talk about our groups and how well a rifle may shoot or how small our groups may be but what about all the work it takes to get there. So what I'm looking at is ES under 20 and a SD of 10 or better.
For me this can be hard to get to the above standards with just standard reloading. I would like to hear what people have found that make a game changer in there reloading. Was it annealing the case necks every time, was it using bushing dies, was it trimming the outer neck diameter thickness, was it sorting brass, primers, bullet weight, bullet ogive length and the list goes on.

For me I like to buy Bergers bullets even though I will admit I have been shooting a lot of Hornady lately. I think Bergers are the most consistent (just my opinion). I don't sort anything.
I clean my cases in a nut shell media, I FL size bumping back the shoulder length about 1 to 2 thousands. I seat or try to seat the bullets to a consistent Ogive length. I don't have a good annealer but I try and anneal cases about every 3 firings. I weigh each powder charge on and RCBS charge master and then over to a balance beam to always double check my powder loads. I only use Federal match 210, or 215 primers, or BR2s. I use a VLD neck case reamer before seating bullets and I also will take the bur out of the primer pocket (I forget the term). It's a process which i did not put in order but everyone get the ideal. Not a whole lot of work but I still find it hard for a 10 shot string to keep in that 20 ES and 10 SD. Lately I've been backing off the powder charge thinking that speed is not everything. I usually push my loads and I shoot for sub MOA at 200 yards. I like to see .5MOA or better at 100 yards. But this brings me back to my reloading I still will see higher ES over a 10 shot string. I know there are other factors that can contribute to this like outside environment, soaking a round in a hot chamber, dirty barrel, etc, etc. But lets here some of the game changers you have found that really helped deliver those excellent numbers.

I think consistent case volume and neck tension benefits you as much as anything else. I don't sort cases but do use brands that are known for consistency and quality. Alpha is my most recent. I don't turn necks but periodically annealing aids with consistent sizing and neck tension.

Recently I haven't even been using a chronograph in my load development. Rather, I have been doing load testing at 500 yards. Any velocity variations show up as vertical on the target. Fairly pleased with the results from this method.

John

 

[mawbro]

Good job and you are on the right track but...almost anybody can shoot a good 3 shot group with low SD's. Show us the money group!

 

[XTR]

I shoot F-TR so my loading is by a huge% for 308s, but the Open guys shooting the short magnums do the same.

In order to hold the 5" X-Ring at 1000 yards you need to have an ES at about 15FPS or less. Most of the competitors at the top of the board can hold that. The F-TR national Record is 200-16X and the F-Open record is 200-22x. (you keep shooting if you get to 200 with 20 x's)

• Anneal every firing - gives consistent neck tension and shoulder bump when sizing.
  
• use Good dies
• FL size with a neck bushing to get neck tension in the range of .0015 to .002 for most people
• Many use an expanded mandrel after sizing (I do this and I don't turn necks)
• Tune your load for precision, not velocity. *this is a whole other thread, it's not hard but it's been recounted to death over on accurate shooter*
  
• Use good primers. That's part of the testing to find out what works best, and they matter - in some cases a lot. Most use CCI or Federal. I don't know a single F-TR shooter using Winchester.
  
• use a powder that gives consistent results. In F-TR (308s) that is Varget, N140, N150, H4895. In F-Open a lot use H4350, Re16, and H4831. Not sure what others, but it's a short list.
• weigh powder to the kernel. Using an Autotrickler and a lab scale like an Fx120i has become the normal. It accurate to ±.02gr
  
• seat with Wilson dies and an arbor press

What I have listed here will make bullets that can win you the national championship if you "do your part". <--- I love that one.

 

[Wachsmann]

Thanks for all the advice. I'm a hunter who like to shoot a whole lot but I shoot a lot so my skill level can be good or better for that once in a life time shot on that once in a life time animal that steps out but its at a much longer range than normal shooting conditions than the average hunter like to take; so that I won't have an issue and I can be confident in the shot and my ammo. I us a kestrel atmospheric data meter and a shooting app that has served me well so for. I also use the kilo 2000 rang finder. Now I need to get a littler more better at my reloading methods to take it to the next level. I'll be looking at the annealers and some neck turners probably next. I have experience the issue with a case felling different when seating a bullet. Where they will fill like a tighter fit than the other one. I generally try and mark those and see if they shoot different..

 

[stljc2]

The method I utilized to find my low Es and Sd follows.
1) Utilizing my overall length gauge, modified case and the bullet i intend to load and find out where the lands are in relation to the ogive of my bullet.
2)size virgin Lapua brass, Clean to remove lube, set new primers
3) load charges (3 cases per charge, starting with berger recommended min) load up to with in max charge with .5 grain increments. This is testing for max pressure.
4) seat 140 gr VLD -H or Elite Hunters 20 thousands off the lands.
5) Check each and every bullet for correct CBTO.( Note I color code each bullet shell on the primer with a magic marker. If I run out of single color then I start utilizing 2 colors. The paper record is marked also.
6) Shoot separate bullseye for each loading. Utilizing a chronograph record each shots ft/s, at the end or 3 shots record Es, Sd and velocity avg.
7) As you shoot, of course, take time to let things cool down some. Keep track of which bull you shot with which loading and check each shell casing for signs of over pressure.
8) If you start to encounter stiff bolt and ejector marks STOP..your at the top pressure. Any further and your gambling with your safety.
9) evaluate your info..look for good groups.
10) pick the top 2 groups.
11) Load up, after going through steps 2-5 except your now using a 2nd fireing of the brass..This is where I anneal my brass if I feel it needs it, before loading up and setting a new primer. PS Yes I do clean my primer pockets when I clean my brass. When I anneal I clean it again.
12) When I load the next round I go .2 gr at a time..looking for the best group. Not every best group is going to have the best Es and Sd.
13) Follow procedure 6 through 9...
14) Sometimes a .1 gr difference in the charge can be critical..be careful in your evaluation.

 

[stljc2]

The method I utilized to find my low Es and Sd follows.
1) Utilizing my overall length gauge, modified case and the bullet i intend to load and find out where the lands are in relation to the ogive of my bullet.
2)size virgin Lapua brass, Clean to remove lube, set new primers
3) load charges (3 cases per charge, starting with berger recommended min) load up to with in max charge with .5 grain increments. This is testing for max pressure.
4) seat 140 gr VLD -H or Elite Hunters 20 thousands off the lands.
5) Check each and every bullet for correct CBTO.( Note I color code each bullet shell on the primer with a magic marker. If I run out of single color then I start utilizing 2 colors. The paper record is marked also.
6) Shoot separate bullseye for each loading. Utilizing a chronograph record each shots ft/s, at the end or 3 shots record Es, Sd and velocity avg.
7) As you shoot, of course, take time to let things cool down some. Keep track of which bull you shot with which loading and check each shell casing for signs of over pressure.
8) If you start to encounter stiff bolt and ejector marks STOP..your at the top pressure. Any further and your gambling with your safety.
9) evaluate your info..look for good groups.
10) pick the top 2 groups.
11) Load up, after going through steps 2-5 except your now using a 2nd fireing of the brass..This is where I anneal my brass if I feel it needs it, before loading up and setting a new primer. PS Yes I do clean my primer pockets when I clean my brass. When I anneal I clean it again.
12) When I load the next round I go .2 gr at a time..looking for the best group. Not every best group is going to have the best Es and Sd.
13) Follow procedure 6 through 9...
14) Sometimes a .1 gr difference in the charge can be critical..be careful in your evaluation.

 

[CliffM]

Consistent neck tension has produced the most improvement for me.
1)Case neck turning to clean up uneven brass
2)Annealing
3)HBN coated bullets
Followed by:
seating depth ( either into the lands or.005"+)
primer powder match ( I will load every primer to compare, more often than not it will be F210.)

Cliff

 

[Tulsa Reiner]

The biggest factor is finding a powder node in my opinion. If you're not in a node you can have crazy high ES and SD numbers even if you have the most accurate and tedious loading techniques. I also use a Bald Eagle scale that measures to the hundredths place and load every round to +-0.02 of a grain. My Dad uses a standard RCBS 10-10 scale and double checks his charges on the Bald Eagle. He also gets very good ES and SDs, but he also is loading in the middle of nodes. You have to zero and calibrate your scale(s), keep them clean, and stay away from air drifts. If I'm loading a big batch of ammo, I use a Redding BR3 powder measure and throw charges 0.5gr or so under my desired load, then put it on the scale and trickle up to my load and double check it.

I use Federal primers, either standard or Gold Metal Match, I don't think there's a big difference but I never interchange the two unless I retest or develop a new load. I've also achieved good ES and SD with Winchester, Remington, Wolf, and CCI primers. I think if you develop your powder around the primer you're using, you can achieve consistency. I think some primers are better than others, but not leaps and bounds better in my opinion.
I have been reading a lot of posts that mention "finding a node." But have not been able to come up with the definition of a node. Can someone easily define it? Or do I need to go somewhere to read about the definition and how to find it? I'm guessing it it different than finding the smallest SD and ES for a load.
I also use high load density charges and tend to use the slowest powder I can without compressing the powder a ton. I only use stick powders and use mainly temp stable powders. I do use RL26, it's not extremely stable, but it's much better than older Reloder powders and other non stable powders. I believe stable powders keep you in the node throughout the year and will stay consistent and not so temperamental.

For brass, I prep every piece of brass I load. I currently only use standard dies and have never had any accuracy issues or problems to warrant the use of bushing dies. I'll eventually get some, but I do not feel handicapped at all with standard dies. I size my brass, trim them, deburr inside and outside the case mouths, uniform the primer pockets, uniform and deburr the flash holes, I also neck turn if necessary for the chamber I'm using. I don't anneal or weight sort my brass. I would like to get a nice annealing machine one day and begin doing that because I know it can help. I also don't waste time sorting bullets or primers. I don't think uniforming the primer pockets and deburring the flash holes makes a huge difference, but this is how I was taught and how I've always prepped my brass.

One thing I do when seating bullets, is I seat the bullet halfway, rotate the case, then finish seating the bullet. Again, this is what my Dad taught me when I was little and he loaded thousands of rounds for the Army Marksmanship Unit, so I have always followed this advice. I have heard from him and others, that it makes a difference and can improve bullet runout. It's a very simple step, and once you start doing it, it's second nature to me now and is just a standard part of my technique.