pluckem
Member
I know they have. That was the point of my post...
By them not changing the "Target Only" (like the poster above wanted them to) it allows them to avoid the can of worms when the guys who shoot shoulder bone at 50yards will create.
Best Elk Bullet
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I know they have. That was the point of my post...
By them not changing the "Target Only" (like the poster above wanted them to) it allows them to avoid the can of worms when the guys who shoot shoulder bone at 50yards will create.
breakshntr
Active Member
Personally I am a Berger and now ELDX guy. But most all of my shots on elk are in open type country and at some sort of range, 200 plus yards, out to 800+. Depending on what 30 cal you are shooting I would get some heavy for Cartrage not Caliber Nosler Accubonds. Original Accubonds. Lets say your using a 300 win mag or something very close in ballistic performance, I would get some 200 grain Accubonds or maybe 180 depending on your twist rate, most should stabilize the 200. The BC of both is pretty darn fair, a few years ago they were considered excellent, even if Nosler fudges a bit on their advertised BC. From point blank out to 800 yards you will be very happy with the bullet performance. Expect 50%+ retention plus at point blank and 80+% at longer ranges. About as good as you can get for a reliable, hard hitting, fail safe bullet at all ranges out to 800. A bit tougher than an eldx and a good bit tougher than a Accubond LR or Berger if a point blank shot is needed. Remember HEAVY for Cartridge. An other very good bullet to consider is a Seirra Game King also ran on the heavy end.
Was the point of your post to express the position that since Berger doesn't market their 215 Hybrid and 230 OTM .308 caliber bullets as "Hunting" bullets, that Berger has no obligation to inform/educate their hunter customers about the closed jacket tips, and the handicap those closed tips pose for hunters dependent upon bullet expansion for the humane harvest of large game?
If so, then I should clarify that the bullets Berger manufactures and markets for "Hunting" also include a percentage with closed jacket tips. The closed tips appear across the Berger line of bullets, whether they're marketed as Target, Hunting, Hybrid, or OTM. It's a by-product of their manufacturing process.
Berger knows that their 215 hybrid and 230 OTM .308 bullets are being successfully used by elk hunters, and that these two "non-Hunting" bullets have earned the reputation on this Forum as being more reliable and effective large game hunting bullets than any of their other .308 "hunting" bullets.
Which brings me back to:
"We recommend that customers using our bullets for hunting check to ensure that the tip of each bullet has a visible opening within the center of the jacket material to help ensure bullet expansion."
Berger advocates customer education on the use of their bullets. Where's the product support for the hunting customer, in the effort to help ensure customer satisfaction?
My bad then if I misconstrued your point.
Here's more info about the difference ...
[ame]https://youtu.be/V_DdAxuyrN4?t=43[/ame]
Cheers!
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pluckem
Member
That's a valid point on the specifically branded hunting bullets and I understand what your saying. I wasn't thinking past the 215 or 230gr offerings.
The thing I was speculating (I really have no idea), specifically related to the 215 and 230gr Target and OTM offerings is even though Berger is well aware of the long range hunting success of those bullets, they are also aware of the instances where they don't perform the best and have choose to not market them in the hunting category.
A user of the bullet, educated on the long and short range performance will be able to take advantage of what seems to be one of the best performing .30 cal bullet on the market.
Hi Pharmseller! What happened? Did they finally kick you off of iFish?
JK, of course...I had something similar happen this year with 300 gr OTM Hybrids out of my 338 Lapua. I'm used to lots of energy dump and big explosive looking wound channels and I do sort my bullets, making sure the the ones with nice open tips go into the 'hunting box'. That said, I also try to put them into bone (shoulder, neck, or frontal shots). Penetration has never been an issue.
This year I hit a spike elk from about 600 yards away. He barely even flinched or acted hit. He walked about 20 yards and I punched him again, same result. He then casually walked behind a tree and stood there for 15 seconds or so before tipping over. After taking a walk to the kill site, I noticed that I must have missed my wind call since both shots were about 6 - 8 inches behind the shoulder and in the rib cage (was aiming for the shoulder). Complete penetration. About 2/3" diameter exit holes, which is not much when the bullet is .338 diameter to start with. The blood trail was OK, there was an exit hole, and the elk was recovered so the OP might have been happy (except it was a Berger, oops never mind). The end result wasn't bad, just not what I was expecting or what I prefer. I prefer DRT and no need to follow a blood trail. Moral of the story; If I had punched him in the shoulder I'm sure there would have been plenty of energy dump and a DRT kill.
I'm not sure what ranges your nephew hunts/shoots at, but the Partition wouldn't be my first choice if the shots were 500 yards or more, especially with a 'non-magnum' cartridge like the 7mm08
. Maybe that's what you meant by "for him" (meaning you will make longer shots and not necessarily switch back to the Partitions - reading between the lines here). Nothing against the partitions, they're one of the most reliably performing bullets made (terminal performance, that is), but their relatively low BC is not conductive to carrying energy further downrange. And then there is wind drift to deal with at the longer ranges. I'm going to try the 285 gr ELD-M's in the Lapua this season. Despite the good track record I've had over the years with Berger Hybrids, I still believe plastic tips expand more reliably (and at lower impact velocities) verses 'open tip match' type bullets. Throw in that the 285 ELD's group well in my rifle, cost less, & have nearly the same BC as the 300 Hybrids and its an easy move to make.
RockyMtnMT
Official LRH Sponsor
Hi Pharmseller! What happened? Did they finally kick you off of iFish?
I had something similar happen this year with 300 gr OTM Hybrids out of my 338 Lapua. I'm used to lots of energy dump and big explosive looking wound channels and I do sort my bullets, making sure the the ones with nice open tips go into the 'hunting box'. That said, I also try to put them into bone (shoulder, neck, or frontal shots). Penetration has never been an issue.
This year I hit a spike elk from about 600 yards away. He barely even flinched or acted hit. He walked about 20 yards and I punched him again, same result. He then casually walked behind a tree and stood there for 15 seconds or so before tipping over. After taking a walk to the kill site, I noticed that I must have missed my wind call since both shots were about 6 - 8 inches behind the shoulder and in the rib cage (was aiming for the shoulder). Complete penetration. About 2/3" diameter exit holes, which is not much when the bullet is .338 diameter to start with. The blood trail was OK, there was an exit hole, and the elk was recovered so the OP might have been happy (except it was a Berger, oops never mind). The end result wasn't bad, just not what I was expecting or what I prefer. I prefer DRT and no need to follow a blood trail. Moral of the story; If I had punched him in the shoulder I'm sure there would have been plenty of energy dump and a DRT kill.
I'm not sure what ranges your nephew hunts/shoots at, but the Partition wouldn't be my first choice if the shots were 500 yards or more, especially with a 'non-magnum' cartridge like the 7mm08
I'm going to try the 285 gr ELD-M's in the Lapua this season. Despite the good track record I've had over the years with Berger Hybrids, I still believe plastic tips expand more reliably (and at lower impact velocities) verses 'open tip match' type bullets. Throw in that the 285 ELD's group well in my rifle, cost less, & have nearly the same BC as the 300 Hybrids and its an easy move to make.
Look forward to your test results. It is my opinion that any tip plugging the hollow point inhibits the expansion. There is some give and take here as the hollow point of the tipped bullet is a larger hole than the non tipped bullet, but the tip must still get out of the way for the expansion to take place. In other words if you remove the tip from the hollow point before shooting it, it would open easier than it does with the tip in place. The smaller the hollow point the more difficult it is to get to reliably open on impact. So the non tipped small hollow point does not need to get rid of the "plug in the hole" before it can get hydraulics into it and cause expansion. It is just quite small and has potential for trouble. The smaller the more potential.
Steve
Usually the last live test I do with a new 'elk' bullet is use it to fill one of my doe/fawn antelope tags. Behind the shoulder if I'm concerned that it may not open up/expand adequately and in the shoulder if I'm concerned it will be too frangible or lack penetration. In this case I have some misgivings about turning 285 grains at ~2900 fps MV loose on something as small as an antelope. If it expands anything like an A-Max, we'll have a mess on our hands.
I'm not sure if it's the bigger hole under the tip, or if the tip acts as a 'wedge' initiating the expansion, but my experience has been very consistent with regards to plastic tips opening, even at low impact velocities. The main problem I've had is too much expansion/not enough penetration with plastic tip projectiles, specifically with Ballistic tips and Accubonds.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Some of thee best bullets I've shot on game which have a flawless track record was the 165 Matrix in the 270 cal, it has lead right to below the tip, it's essentially plugged yet performance was perfect from 80 yards to 900+ on bull elk. I don't think the tip thing is perfectly sorted out as to exactly how it functions in some bullets. I tell every noob to open tip bullets to check them but I honestly have not checked tips for years, I personally have only seen one pencil in a hundred + animals. Looking at bullet function over the years the Berger type open tip match bullet has been far more consistent performing than I ever saw from Barnes and accubonds, even testing bullets like the CEB and ELDX I saw more variables and more bullet holes per kill.
This could be my personal shot placement just works better with the open tip type cup and core bullet, but the last time we saw a melt down on the forum the 6.5 140 was one of the blowing up penciling bullets that someone saw fail 100% and since I shoot a lot of these I deliberately took on the task to try to make one blow up or pencil, I started out at 3234fps, first shot was a heavy quartering cow elk so I put it low in the shoulder and she made it two steps and slide 300 yards to my feet, the bullet destroyed the largest shoulder bone, blew a hole into her chest and destroyed all the arteries at the front of the chest then ended under the hide in the neck in front of the shoulder, epic performance!!
Second attempt for a failure was a mule deer buck at 300, I out the bullet at the back of the lungs high, no bone was touched, he ran 75 yards and piled up, blood was every where and chunks of lung were hanging out the hole, epic performance yet again with an exact opposite kind of hit!!
I simple can not find a better bullet than an open tip match for elk, so far I can only think of one bull that I shot twice but the first one wrecked him, everything else was one shot and a few steps flopping over, I've recovered every animal I've shot at with them as well, short of killing two with one shot I can't get a better percentage!!
This could be my personal shot placement just works better with the open tip type cup and core bullet, but the last time we saw a melt down on the forum the 6.5 140 was one of the blowing up penciling bullets that someone saw fail 100% and since I shoot a lot of these I deliberately took on the task to try to make one blow up or pencil, I started out at 3234fps, first shot was a heavy quartering cow elk so I put it low in the shoulder and she made it two steps and slide 300 yards to my feet, the bullet destroyed the largest shoulder bone, blew a hole into her chest and destroyed all the arteries at the front of the chest then ended under the hide in the neck in front of the shoulder, epic performance!!
Second attempt for a failure was a mule deer buck at 300, I out the bullet at the back of the lungs high, no bone was touched, he ran 75 yards and piled up, blood was every where and chunks of lung were hanging out the hole, epic performance yet again with an exact opposite kind of hit!!
I simple can not find a better bullet than an open tip match for elk, so far I can only think of one bull that I shot twice but the first one wrecked him, everything else was one shot and a few steps flopping over, I've recovered every animal I've shot at with them as well, short of killing two with one shot I can't get a better percentage!!
WildRose
Well-Known Member
The whole purpose of those tips is to ensure consistent expansion at a broad range of velocities.
I've shot various types of tipped bullets since first trying the NBT's in the early 90's on hundreds of game animals, varmints, and predators, and I have yet to see one fail to initiate expansion.
I have seen some where the tip was broken off with just a shaft remaining that didn't seen to expand as consistently but they all made a bigger hole on the way out than they did on the way in.
Hollow points on the other hand can get completely clogged and fail to open at all and if the hole does not go all they way through to the lead core, they can fail to open.
