Bergers ????

[Lrt307]

glad to hear you are working on it. Berger does a good job reacting to the users issues.

just as a precaution I trim the meplat on my hunting bullets just to insure that the point is open. Haven't had a problem before or since but it sounded like a good idea.

Do you practice long range shots with meplat trimmed? Wondering what if any does this do to the bc of the bullet?

 

[barefooter56]

Do you practice long range shots with meplat trimmed? Wondering what if any does this do to the bc of the bullet?

Lrt307,
It will affect the BC which is why target shooters will point the bullet back up after meplat uniforming to get back some of the lost BC. We don't recommend modifying the nose of our hunting bullets because it affects the bullets performance on game . But some do with success.

 

[Pdvdh]

Amen: so let's start hearing what we can do to prevent the occasional "pencil" bullet that took me a long time and a lot of kills to experience out of the same rifle, load etc.

I believe it was back in 2010 (5 yrs ago) when Phorwath related his experience of a bullet penciling on a sheep, then you intermittently heard other stories, now it has built up to the attitude that it is quite common.

In all that time I hear nothing from the Berger camp but crickets - in the long run someone has to step up to the plate and tell me the guys that have experienced this are either terrible shots, have poor reloading techniques, have a P poor rifle, etc., or here is what you can do to minimize this phenomena.

This ain't going away.

I won't be surprised but what some type of tweak to the tip of these bullets, such as an additional step in manufacturing to control internal tip configuration, will help with this issue. After all, these bullets were originally designed for benchrest/target competitions. It would be a fluke to ultimately learn that the original target tips also happened to be the very best tip design to ensure reliable expansion on game animals. It seems very intuitive that tip design, both shape and metallurgy, are the key to expansion. Berger obviously believes the bullet tips are important to expansion, to the extent they advise not modifying them for hunting.

I meplat uniform and countersink the tips. So far so good. This causes a slight reduction in the BC value because the tips are a little blunter. I'm very accepting of this if it helps reduce the likelihood of non-expanding bullets.

If further research confirms the tips can be improved, perhaps Berger's hunting bullets will leave their factory with different tips than their target bullets.

If manufacturers can figure out how to put plastic, aluminum, bronze, and brass tips on their bullets, then some engineer with experience in manufacturing processes should be able to come up with a cost-effective process for tweaking the tips.

 

[RH300UM]

In conversations through email with Berger they still beleive that the hollow point is not the cause of the failures.
I on the other hand strongly disagree. I have for years now been tweaking all my Bergers. Some say I am crazy but I have been called worse. Proof is what I am after.
So for now I will keep with my process.
Just consider this. How can you expect a consistent hole in the tip when you are crushing material around the die that makes the hole. Pull some bullets from your boxes and stick a wire that is somewhat the same size as hole. Some will affect the wire some won't. This is the problem. In the worst case the opening is completely blocked.
Just my 2 cents

 

[cowboy]

In conversations through email with Berger they still beleive that the hollow point is not the cause of the failures.
I on the other hand strongly disagree. I have for years now been tweaking all my Bergers. Some say I am crazy but I have been called worse. Proof is what I am after.
So for now I will keep with my process.
Just consider this. How can you expect a consistent hole in the tip when you are crushing material around the die that makes the hole. Pull some bullets from your boxes and stick a wire that is somewhat the same size as hole. Some will affect the wire some won't. This is the problem. In the worst case the opening is completely blocked.
Just my 2 cents

I will stick my neck out and give you my 2 cent opinion. The hole in the tip is one thing but in my opinion the cavity below the hole tip to the lead core is where I suspect the problem lies. If you have no cavity you have a potential problem.

Then again you can't check the cavity if the tip is closed. All of us shooting Bergers have our opinion and we're all doing something slightly different - anywhere to using them as they come with no problems to going to various methods of checking/modifying.

 

[bigngreen]

I think it's hard to put a finger on it also, I'd like to think the tip or cavity could cause an issue but I shoot a couple bullets that use the same J4 jacket and are VLD design but have lead to the tip and they function awesome! I've also played with annealing and actually like the results of that more than trimming and chamfering the tip which resulted in some moments that I was glad no elk were involved in.
I think in part some issues come from just the fact that there very pointed bullets, if we look at bullets designed for heavy game like African game we don't see pointed bullets, dangerous game bullets tend to be round or blunt nosed. I have never seen a 350+ gr bullet from my 45-70 ever turn direction, a 520 gr solid will go straight through an elk from any direction you please and track. If these pointy bullets deflect at all they loose the hydraulic pressure in the tip and they'll deflect and tumble I think.

 

[dok7mm]

I won't be surprised but what some type of tweak to the tip of these bullets, such as an additional step in manufacturing to control internal tip configuration, will help with this issue. After all, these bullets were originally designed for benchrest/target competitions. It would be a fluke to ultimately learn that the original target tips also happened to be the very best tip design to ensure reliable expansion on game animals. It seems very intuitive that tip design, both shape and metallurgy, are the key to expansion. Berger obviously believes the bullet tips are important to expansion, to the extent they advise not modifying them for hunting.

I meplat uniform and countersink the tips. So far so good. This causes a slight reduction in the BC value because the tips are a little blunter. I'm very accepting of this if it helps reduce the likelihood of non-expanding bullets.

If further research confirms the tips can be improved, perhaps Berger's hunting bullets will leave their factory with different tips than their target bullets.

If manufacturers can figure out how to put plastic, aluminum, bronze, and brass tips on their bullets, then some engineer with experience in manufacturing processes should be able to come up with a cost-effective process for tweaking the tips.

I am with Phorwath on this and have been trimming just enough to have consistency and then counter sinking. There is some loss of BC, but with good dope this can be easily overcome. I shoot 140 to 180 gr VLDs and Hybrids in a variety of calibers and find, on paper and steel, I am getting at least the same groupings as with the virgin bullets. I do not have any current results on game with trimmed meplats, so I will not comment on their effectiveness. I have had two bullets pencil thru with caliber size exits and over twenty that did perform as expected. I have had zero failures since I started checking for open meplats and segregating the ones that were not consistent (less than 1% of nearly 2,200 bullets checked). I know there have been failures among this base of shooters, but I seriously doubt that all have been the fault of Berger's bullets. I would think that POI, shot angle and slamming around in magazines would cause as many failures as Berger QC. ALL THIS BEING SAID, I am going to trim and hope for 100% expansion, along with trying the Hornady ELR-X in 175 grainers in .284, when available. Berger has been innovative to this point and it stands to reason, they will FIX the hunting line with jacket and/or tip adjustments in the future. I hate to say it, but we are quick to spot flaws and even quicker to demand absolute perfection in our tools.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

So I am thinking that you guys that are checking the tips should test the bullets that you find lacking the appropriate hollow pt. Shoot them into news paper or what ever and see if they act diff than the others. This could go a long way to figuring out why.

Steve

 

[Pdvdh]

So I am thinking that you guys that are checking the tips should test the bullets that you find lacking the appropriate hollow pt. Shoot them into news paper or what ever and see if they act diff than the others. This could go a long way to figuring out why.

Steve

Not my job.

I'll let Berger work on that. As long as my modified Bergers expand, I'm good.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Not my job.

I'll let Berger work on that. As long as my modified Bergers expand, I'm good.

I should have stated that my thought was worth .02

Steve

 

[dok7mm]

Actually, that's a good question. My best guess is that testing in any media other than game animals would not really answer any questions. Unless there was significant numbers of bullets with the exact same irregularities fired @ xxxx fps into same media, the testing would not lead anywhere. The big problem is that the bullets, that have failed hunters, are long gone (excepting a few, mentioned in this thread). I found 12-13 bullets that were suspect out of 2,200 +/-, but I have no idea if they would have expanded or not. Some had tightly closed tips, but normal depth to lead. Several had lead extending much closer to tip and others had a chisel tip that I could not open. My problem was that I realized I had found a few bullets, somewhat different than the norm, but had no idea if the rest would expand normally. Hence, I trimmed and counter-sunk the culls and used for fouling. I believe that Berger searched out all the bullets w/ closed tips in their inventory, to do some testing of their own. I place more value in their test procedures than mine. I'd bet they have discovered multiple small variations from one meplat to another, not anything glaringly pointing to a problem. Berger will solve the problem in time. Until then, I'll trim & countersink and shoot mostly Bergers. I give them points for staying in touch with shooters and hunters on LRH. One last point --- I changed the closed meplat on each bullet as I gauged the depth of hollow pt. To find the "bad" bullets, I was actually making the meplat more uniform. " I know nothing." -- Sgt. Shultz