Bear spray vs Bullets

[MontanaRifleman]

Your point is good and your opinion is respected. "BUT" If a bear decides to pick a Fight with me, he will pay dearly. I was taught never to pick a fight but to be sure I win it and with the odds in the bears favor I will use all the force I can muster. If it was legal and possible to be accurate, I would use a hand grenade.

Bear spray sounds like a good deterrent but dead is a better one and I don't want to find out that a ticked off bare will deal with the spray and get real militant. I have seen what small bears can do and even the smallest ones are not to be trifled with unless you have a death wish.

Don't get upset if others don't feel the same or have the same opinion as you (It happens to me all the time) they are just expressing there opinion on a great web site for discussions.

J E CUSTOM

JE I'm not upset at all by others opinion. I totally respect your and others opinion on the subject. I do get the feeling sometimes others get a little agitated with me and my opinion if I suggest that I think spray is the "best" deterrence. I've had debates on this subject in another forum and they usually got very heated to say the least. I'm trying to avoid that here. There are those who feel that bear spray is part of an anti-gun agenda and I don't doubt that the anti-gunners are pro spray. But that doesn't change that "I" believe that spray is the "best" option. If I didn't think so, a gun would be my first choice.

Interestingly, I always thought guns were the best option until I had to get spray for deterrence in YNP as guns were not allowed. When I purchased the spray I decided to give a trial run to make sure I understood how to do it and that it really worked, i.e. not a dud. I had no intention of inhaling it and when I did inhale it after it had dissipated to the point were it could not be seen and it nearly incapacitated me, my mind was changed. A burst right from the can would be many times more concentrated and I would not want to even think about getting a face full of that.

Anyway, I understand and respect your opinion.

 

[jmden]

Look at DP hunter ammo. They make some very nice loads for both .40 and .45.I have high capacity Springfield XDM's and either one of those loaded with the heavies from DT I'd have plenty of confidence in. I've always had very good results with Double Tap.

Sadly you just don't' know who you will run into in the woods or under what circumstances so it's not a bad idea to be prepared for both two and four legged problems should they arise.

Thanks, WildRose. I've got a pretty potent load for the .40 for that I pack in the woods--180g XTP with a stout charge of Longshot under it pushing 'em out to 1200+ fps, but am considering going with the .50 AE instead (let the derision ensue... especially when in griz country.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

No disagreement that a man eating bear should be killed, if possible. And no animosity intended.

But it would be wrong to characterize the Timothy Treadwell investigation as, primarily, a bear hunt for a man eating bear. The primary mission for officials was to investigate the death, and recover the remains of, at least one dead person, and to determine the status of a second missing person. The location was a jungle of alders, which is why they never saw any bears from the air moments prior to walking up to the camp/death site.

When entering the domain of the most deadly of bears, a killer and a man eater, there's no mention of any of these men carrying bear spray, or being prepared to use bear spray. The bear approached them determinedly, head on in brushy alders, appearing at less than 15 yards. My purpose in posting this incident was to point out that when placing themselves in a life and death confrontation with a killer, man eating bear, all officials employed firearms rather than bear spray.

Survival is the first priority taught to emergency responders, since a dead responder isn't helping anyone, or anything. Neither their self survival instincts, nor their training, would have caused them to prioritize the killing of any bear, above the selection of the best bear defense possible to ensure their own survival. They all employed firearms, rather than bear spray.

Yes, I'm familiar with the Timothy Treadwell case. I've read all about it and watched/listened to the gruesome youtube videos of the attacks. Treadwell was a nut case and it was only a matter of time until his demise. Too bad he had to take his girlfriend with him.

If I would have been in the recovery party, I too would have been armed with a 12 gauge, but not because I thought it was the "best" "deterrent".

Survival is my first priority as well. We have a difference of opinion as to which which is the best course to take to survive.

I would suggest that an angry bear is more determined than a hungry bear. However, a hungry bear is more likely to kill you than an angry bear. But, an angry bear is going to be more difficult to deter than a hungry bear, especially an angry mama bear. IMO, any potential encounter with an angry or hungry bear, be it hiking, fishing, hunting or whatever is a potential life and death situation. My opinion is that spray is the best option to preserve my life and safety in general.

In the Treadwell case, I believe that bear was being territorial and ate Treadwell in the process. If I were to stumble into the no-go zone of a 300 lb mama grizzly, that mama would be much more difficult to deter than the much larger male Treadwell bear.

I will also suggest that the larger the bear the more in favor I am of using spray, because the bigger the bear, the more fire power it takes to put it down. A large bear is going to be equally affected as a smaller bear by spray.

Cheers

 

[HARPERC]

I'm just trying to bring a little more objectivity to the big picture. So I 'll leave it there

You succeeded, and i knew that. I understand there are places you can't go with a firearm, and it's good to have an understandable option.

No need to step back your choice has some valid points, and you presented them effectively.

 

[T3-OleMan]

There were some accurate things said about spray in previous posts but they applied to the older types of sprays that were basically skin irritants. Totlly different animals than some of the newer devolved products that are actually illegal to use on humans.

So I just wanted to jump and clear that up so we have good current info to work with.

Buy a can and try it yourself, just don't have anything important planned for the rest of the day

"are actually illegal to use on humans" this was mentioned a couple other times in the thread so I would like to know for only one purpose. IN HOME USE on HOME INVADING perps only.



I pack 'COUNTER ASSAULT' (Exp 2017-lol) on my CO ELK hunts. Is it some local, some states or a FED Statute? Just would not want to go looking for trouble spraying a perp, in my house, when I could just deal some Black Talons if that is a problem.

For Mark or any one who knows the absolutes.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

"are actually illegal to use on humans" this was mentioned a couple other times in the thread so I would like to know for only one purpose. IN HOME USE on HOME INVADING perps only.



I pack 'COUNTER ASSAULT' (Exp 2017-lol) on my CO ELK hunts. Is it some local, some states or a FED Statute? Just would not want to go looking for trouble spraying a perp, in my house, when I could just deal some Black Talons if that is a problem.

For Mark or any one who knows the absolutes.

I based that on a warning that was printed on the first can of UDAP I purchsed. After getting into this thread i went to the UDAP site and saw that they have human type sprays. I'm guessing it may be a different formula. There are some testimonials on the UDAP site. Be warned that if you use this in an enclosed area you might suffer the consequences of inhaling it. In the case of perps invading my home, I have no problem feeding them a lethal dose of lead.

On a side note, If I had a wife, girlfriend, daughter female friend, etc. I would encourage them to get a CCW, learn how to use a firearm and/or have a small can of UDAP or Counter Assault in their purse or person. Taurus makes a nice compact 7 shot 357 mag.

The best thing to do is call your local Sherrif/LE office

I would be very hesitant to use these products indoors.

 

[WildRose]

Thanks, WildRose. I've got a pretty potent load for the .40 for that I pack in the woods--180g XTP with a stout charge of Longshot under it pushing 'em out to 1200+ fps, but am considering going with the .50 AE instead (let the derision ensue... especially when in griz country.

At the kinds of range we're talking about for defensive purposes I honestly think choice of caliber is secondary to having a weapon you can bring to bear an fire quickly, without thinking and in a high stress situation.

You also want one that fits your hand well enough that you are not likely to lose it in a grapple.

The latter is why I have the sand paper type grips on all of my carry guns. Wet with blood, sweat, mud, water, you name it, it's like they are glued to my hand.

 

[T3-OleMan]

Thanks mark. Thats all I need to know. Back to the Black Talons I guess...lol

 

[jmden]

The latter is why I have the sand paper type grips on all of my carry guns. \

Are you talking about commercially made aftermarket grips or added something like skateboard tape here and there? Just curious to see what you're talking about. Always trying to learn some more...

 

[Pdvdh]

Treadwell was a nut case and it was only a matter of time until his demise. Too bad he had to take his girlfriend with him.

Cheers

Exactly. The cause of "nut case" may have been genetic. But the decision to impose nut case risk on the girlfriend was pathetic, in retrospect.

Treadwell should have known better - thus "nut case". The girlfriend was likely lulled into a false sense of safety by Treadwell.

Here's a pretty good documentary, summary, and analysis of the killing of Treadwell and his girlfriend, Amy Huguenard: Timothy Treadwell Incident--A Full Report and Examination

Alaska is huge, geographically. Small in population, which can result in a lot of "it's a small world" comments.

I've met two of the first responders. One at my neighbor's house. US Park Service ranger pilot A. Gilliland. He used to work with my neighbor as a local City of Soldotna police officer. He was in the thick of the shooting and killing of both bears. He's the guy that moved in to finish off the 2nd smaller bear with a head shot.

I've also flown with Andrew Airways air taxi pilot Willie Fulton. Nice guy. He's the pilot that flew Treadwell out to, and back from, his field camps over the years. He flew out to pick up Treadwell, saw what looked like human remains from the air, and called officials for assistance. He's the responder that dropped to the ground to avoid the line of fire just before the fusillade of bullets erupted, sent into the man eater by responding officials.

And I've met and checked in brown bear hides following successful hunts with the F&G biologist Larry Van Daele. Not a first responder. But Larry performed a necropsy on the larger bear at the scene a day or two after the bear was killed. He was in the movie also, and interviewed for the movie. He's stationed in Kodiak, Alaska.

I've never discussed this incident with any of them.

 

[Wyodog]

As stated at the beginning of this thread I have chosen to carry bear spray. I used to carry a handgun and I may again in the future. However, when it comes to Treadwell responders, who probably knew there was a high likelihood of a bear encounter, I would have also taken a firearm. It would have been a long firearm though not a handgun. Something like a shotgun or .45 - 70. I may have also had spray or a handgun but my primary would have been a long gun.

However in a hunting or hiking situation I don't generally expect to be confronted by an aggressive bear so need to have a measure of defense that I can deploy quickly which may be my rifle as long as its not fastened to my pack. In that case I left either a hand gun or spray. I guess for me at least for now, its rifle first choice and spray second choice.

Here is my reason/reasons; I have watched several videos of bear charges and it ia apparent to me that a bears head is bobbing up and down as they run towards you. Sometimes as much a 2 feet. A bear running at 40 mph will cover 55 feet distance in 1 second. That means you have 2 seconds to execute a successful defense on a charging bear that is 40 yards from you. during that 2 seconds of time the bears head is moving up and down with each lunge. So they way I process this I have to either draw my handgun at shoot an 8" target that is moving up and down in 2 seconds, or reach to a spray can on my belt and spat a 6 feet diameter mist that the bear will run into.

I truly believe that a bullet in the brain is the absolute best deterrent to a bear attack! However what are the odds of me making that shot with zero experience of being charged by a grizzly?

I shoot a lot and I shoot well but I think that is a tough shot under high adrenaline.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Here is my reason/reasons; I have watched several videos of bear charges and it ia apparent to me that a bears head is bobbing up and down as they run towards you. Sometimes as much a 2 feet. A bear running at 40 mph will cover 55 feet distance in 1 second. That means you have 2 seconds to execute a successful defense on a charging bear that is 40 yards from you. during that 2 seconds of time the bears head is moving up and down with each lunge. So they way I process this I have to either draw my handgun at shoot an 8" target that is moving up and down in 2 seconds, or reach to a spray can on my belt and spat a 6 feet diameter mist that the bear will run into.

I truly believe that a bullet in the brain is the absolute best deterrent to a bear attack! However what are the odds of me making that shot with zero experience of being charged by a grizzly?

I shoot a lot and I shoot well but I think that is a tough shot under high adrenaline.

That is exactly my reasoning as well. One other thing is I have carried a Ruger Redhawk quite a bit on fishing and hiking trips and it gets heavy after a few hours and a bunch of miles, especially in the mountains. By the end of the day I am very happy to take it off. However, that is a secondary consideration and if I thought a gun was the best option, I would carry the extra weight.

I would rather have a large cal revolver (41 minimum) in a tent though, so if you're up to carrying both, that's a good option. I'll take my chances.

BTW, I googled best bear sprays, and it looks like Counter Assault is the best spray option for amount and duration of spray.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

For those who opt to carry a sidearm, I would recommend a double action revolver as they are slightly more reliable than an auto. Also, with an auto, you are going to have jack the slide or carry with one in the chamber which IMO is a little sketchy. With a double action you can leave one chamber empty and when you pull the trigger or cock the hammer it will load a loaded chamber for fire. You might say that only leaves you 5 shots (6 in some revolvers) In an attack situation, your chances of getting off more than 2 or 3 shots is very slim. I would choose about a 4-6" barrel. I would use hardcast wad cutters or semi wad cutters over a max load of powder.

Good luck

 

[WildRose]

Are you talking about commercially made aftermarket grips or added something like skateboard tape here and there? Just curious to see what you're talking about. Always trying to learn some more...

These are commercially made. There are several different companies making them but these are what I have on both my XDM's and my Glocks.

X-Treme Grips, XDM - Powder River Precision, Inc.

You can also get sheets and cut your own to fit.