Bear spray vs Bullets

[MontanaRifleman]

You're not going to appreciate this response. You said "So I'll leave it there" more than 55 posts prior to this one.

Yes we all have opinions and we are all expressing them. Your opinion and the belief that yours is the superior one, led you to pose a question utterly without merit within this Thread's topic of discussion. "Why bet your life on anything?" The effect was to disparage the opinion and preference expressed by WildRose. But then your immediate response to my post, which exposed the irrelevant and condescending nature of your question, was "We all have our opinions on that and they have been pretty well fleshed out. No perfect answers... we do what we can do and what we think is best.." That's the healthy equivalent of "live and let live".

Which begs the question... is it live and let live only when you've decided it's time to live and let live? You could have, and really should have, adhered to that position of tolerance before asking WildRose "Why bet your life on anything?" Should have, that is, if you truly subscribe to "live and let live", respecting all members expressions of their opinions on whether bear spray or bullets are the better self defense tool.

Here's my answer to your question, "Why bet your life on anything?" Because we incur risk, and continually place incremental bets on our lives, in the pursuit of happiness. We bet our life when we drive our cars, when we walk across the street, when we venture into the bear's domain. We bet our life throughout life. What was the point of your question? To imply WildRose shouldn't place himself in the potential presence of bears, in order to avoid any bet that a bear might possibly take his life? He never said he was frozen in fear of bears. The neutral interpretation of WildRose's posts are that he'll not bet his life on what he believes to be the inferior defensive tool --> bear spray.

Paul, the question to Wildrose was a rhetorical one. My point with the reply was, IMO, we spend a lot of time and emotion on a topic like this and I think it's overkill. On average, our chances of getting struck by lightening is greater than being attacked by a bear... and the vast majority of the relatively few attacks do not result in death... making a mountain out of an ant hill.

There are a number of us in this thread who live and play in bear country and have had numerous encounters with bears and have not been attacked. /who knows how many times a Bear walked past my tent while I was sleeping inside. Once when there was a light snowfall during the night I found a set of tracks that walked in a straight line passing within 10' of my tent. My food was hung high in a tree. I was elk hunting and I did have a loaded 7 mag in the tent with me.

In a study Titled "Efficacy of Bear Deterrent Spray in Alaska" I found this;

Miller and Tutterow (1999) reported that brown bear (Ursus arctos;synonymous with ''grizzly bear''and hereafter brown bear) attacks resulted in 2.75 injuries and 0.42 deaths per year in Alaska, USA, from 1986 to 1996

http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/bear_cougar/bear/files/JWM_BearSprayAlaska.pdf

The study also concludes that people who use spray as a deterrent were less likely to be seriously injured or killed by a bear than those who used firearms. Now there are those who favor using a gun for defense that say this was a biased study promoting a non-lethal way of deterring bears. It seems to me the study clearly stated the data and defined it's parameters. IME, the only way this study could be biased is if it left out data.

Also, the early years that the study covers were prior to the development of the newer more effective types of sprays.

Nothing I have written in thread suggests that I am "selective" in "live and let live". I have stated numerous times that a person should use whatever type of protection they want/are comfortable with. That said, when someone says something that I believe is not quite factual, then I'll address it. i.e., failure of spray can to function.

Cheers

 

[WildRose]

Came across this video of a guy doing a Counter Assault demo.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/vide...a&sigb=12rkum8hg&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001

The first thirty seconds of that video tells me all I need to know. To paraphrase him he stated that he's seen people empty an entire can on a bear and it then took several minutes for the bear to decide to go away.

He also ends up getting a good dose of it it himself which is one of the biggest problems with bear sprays. You certainly can't guarantee that the bear attacking you will be down wind.

The other problem I have with it is the need for two hands to operate it. One to hold and discharge, the other to remove the safety tab.

 

[WildRose]

Point takin! However, the only way that you can change my mind is if I let you. If the spray works for you,Great! Again, I've never been put in the position of a bear encounter, an hope I don't, however if the situation arises, I would feel more comfortable with a firearm! I'm to fat to run an to stupid to be scared, so my vote goes to a firearm of choice! Thanks!

DT

I've spent a great deal of time studying, practicing, and teaching self defense with a particular focus on the defensive use of a handgun. On a slow year I will shoot several thousand rounds of handgun ammo and frequently do so performing self defense drills.

There's no amount of stress or surprise that will make me freeze or hesitate and I don't even have to think about putting a handgun to work accurately and quickly.

I can't imagine how many tens of thousands of dollars I'd have to spend on bear spray not to mention the hours involved to become as familiar and competent with employing a can of spray as I am a handgun.

I won't dictate to anyone else what they should or shouldn't do but if my thoughts and experience can help someone in such an encounter someday or simply help them prepare to such an extent that they feel more comfortable, confident and prepared in such an encounter I feel pretty good about it and feel like my time spent on the discussion is worthwhile.

 

[Dick Tinsley]

I've spent a great deal of time studying, practicing, and teaching self defense with a particular focus on the defensive use of a handgun. On a slow year I will shoot several thousand rounds of handgun ammo and frequently do so performing self defense drills.

There's no amount of stress or surprise that will make me freeze or hesitate and I don't even have to think about putting a handgun to work accurately and quickly.

I can't imagine how many tens of thousands of dollars I'd have to spend on bear spray not to mention the hours involved to become as familiar and competent with employing a can of spray as I am a handgun.

I won't dictate to anyone else what they should or shouldn't do but if my thoughts and experience can help someone in such an encounter someday or simply help them prepare to such an extent that they feel more comfortable, confident and prepared in such an encounter I feel pretty good about it and feel like my time spent on the discussion is worthwhile.

Thoughts an exsperiance is great for discussion. I ( like you) have many hours at the range with a handgun. It's what I'm comfortable with. If one is comfortable with spray,Great! That's their choice. Me,I chose a handgun. Many Thanks Again.

DT

 

[J E Custom]

This has been a very enlightening post and sometimes emotional. But it has brought to light opinions on how to deal with a bear and how to prepare for such an event.

All is good, and this gives everyone the informed information and they can chose what is right for them.

I have read all the post and seen the Videos and they were very informative. an armed with what I read and saw I know exactly what I will carry and others will have to decide for their selves.

So this thread has done its job and everyone should be able to make a decision on what would be best for them. Hopefully, no one will ever have to find out if they made the right choice.

Just a comment.

J E CUSTOM

 

[FEENIX]

This has been a very enlightening post and sometimes emotional. But it has brought to light opinions on how to deal with a bear and how to prepare for such an event.

All is good, and this gives everyone the informed information and they can chose what is right for them.

I have read all the post and seen the Videos and they were very informative. an armed with what I read and saw I know exactly what I will carry and others will have to decide for their selves.

So this thread has done its job and everyone should be able to make a decision on what would be best for them. Hopefully, no one will ever have to find out if they made the right choice.

Just a comment.

J E CUSTOM

Well said Jerry!

 

[Dick Tinsley]

This has been a very enlightening post and sometimes emotional. But it has brought to light opinions on how to deal with a bear and how to prepare for such an event.

All is good, and this gives everyone the informed information and they can chose what is right for them.

I have read all the post and seen the Videos and they were very informative. an armed with what I read and saw I know exactly what I will carry and others will have to decide for their selves.

So this thread has done its job and everyone should be able to make a decision on what would be best for them. Hopefully, no one will ever have to find out if they made the right choice.

Just a comment.

J E CUSTOM

Spot on!!!

 

[MontanaRifleman]

The first thirty seconds of that video tells me all I need to know. To paraphrase him he stated that he's seen people empty an entire can on a bear and it then took several minutes for the bear to decide to go away.

He also ends up getting a good dose of it it himself which is one of the biggest problems with bear sprays. You certainly can't guarantee that the bear attacking you will be down wind.

The other problem I have with it is the need for two hands to operate it. One to hold and discharge, the other to remove the safety tab.

Yeah, I noticed that as well. Hard to say what was going on there. Did the person panic and depress the trigger until the can was emptied? Did the guy actually see someone use it on a bear or was he just talking (Brian Williams syndrome)? What I DID see was, after the spray was deployed, a very short burst, it dissipated and started drifting back to him and the camera man as evidenced by them starting to cough. Similar to what happened to me. It is very potent stuff. As it is coming directly out of the can, it is hundreds of times more concentrated in PPM.

And yes, wind can be a complicating factor but it can be dealt with. I would rather get a whiff of spray than a face full of teeth and claws.

Did you see the second video? That bear was in a rage and as soon as the bear was hit with the spray it retreated. That bear was extremely intent and intense. There was a lot of spray left in those cans after it backed off. This brings up something else to think about. I you are with a buddy or buddies and you are jumped by a bear before having time to react, would you rather your buddies are spraying spray, or spraying lead at the bear with you underneath it?

Also, you might want to go back and look at the first video again. The guy operated the can with one hand including removing the safety tab.

Interestingly, I am the only one in this thread who has had an "intimate" experience with spray. As I said previously, before that experience I was very skeptical about sprays and figured that a gun was my best defense. I changed my way of thinking and I do know how to use a gun.

Earlier, I half seriously and half jokingly offered a wager to anyone who could successfully charge me while I was spraying them. If that would actually happen, I have little doubt the person would end up in the ER. Please do not attempt that. Don't even have someone directly give you a short burst as I suggested to someone else earlier. The best thing to do if you want to know what this stuff is like is to pick a calm day, spray a short burst and then start walking toward it.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm just trying to separate the wheat from the chaff on the subject so folks can make an informed decision based on facts and objectivity.

 

[HARPERC]

I you are with a buddy or buddies and you are jumped by a bear before having time to react, would you rather your buddies are spraying spray, or spraying lead at the bear with you underneath it?

I have little doubt the person would end up in the ER. Please do not attempt that. Don't even have someone directly give you a short burst as I suggested to someone else earlier. The best thing to do if you want to know what this stuff is like is to pick a calm day, spray a short burst and then start walking toward it.

It's not unheard of for folks to end up in ER from a dose of human spray. One shop here had bear spray on the counter for sale, a bored customer gave it a "puff" into the shop, and put an asthmatic nearby in the ICU.

Last year (I think) a man in Idaho was killed just as described, a bullet from a hunting partner trying to get a bear off him. When we were hunting bears more often this was discussed with any new guys in the group, and I've had the same conversation with guides. I may survive getting tossed by a bear, but adding a rifle bullet into the mix lowers my odds considerably.

Depending on conditions particles can remain suspended in the air longer than most think.

 

[Pdvdh]

This brings up something else to think about. I you are with a buddy or buddies and you are jumped by a bear before having time to react, would you rather your buddies are spraying spray, or spraying lead at the bear with you underneath it?

What others carry or spray has never factored into what I decide to carry for bear defense. This is reaching pretty far out into never never land, for purposes of promoting bear spray over bullets. Yes, bullets can be efficient killers. That's why I rely on them.

If a buddy kills me with a bullet, then I needed a better buddy - not bear spray.

 

[Dick Tinsley]

What others carry or spray has never factored into what I decide what to carry for bear defense. This is reaching pretty far out into never never land, for purposes of promoting bear spray over bullets. Yes, bullets can be efficient killers. That's why I rely on them.

If a buddy kills me with a bullet, then I needed a better buddy - not bear spray.

Got to agree. Like I sad, I've never had a encounter with a bear, but I would rather have a buddy with a firearm an take the chance on taking a bullet than prolonging the process an being seasoned to taste! Just my two cents!

DT

 

[sp6x6]

What others carry or spray has never factored into what I decide to carry for bear defense. This is reaching pretty far out into never never land, for purposes of promoting bear spray over bullets. Yes, bullets can be efficient killers. That's why I rely on them.

If a buddy kills me with a bullet, then I needed a better buddy - not bear spray.

My thoughts also. My son wounded a large black bear when he was about 15.We tracked bear into real thick,could hear him in there,ive been in this senrio way more than I like. I had my son get on large root wad and watch over me in ewe brush,and reminded him if went bad dont shoot me. I trusted him,he is now Marine double expert.Anyway bear was on way out when I got to him.I ve been in on a few crazy cat kills also.

 

[WildRose]

Yeah, I noticed that as well. Hard to say what was going on there. Did the person panic and depress the trigger until the can was emptied? Did the guy actually see someone use it on a bear or was he just talking (Brian Williams syndrome)? What I DID see was, after the spray was deployed, a very short burst, it dissipated and started drifting back to him and the camera man as evidenced by them starting to cough. Similar to what happened to me. It is very potent stuff. As it is coming directly out of the can, it is hundreds of times more concentrated in PPM.

And yes, wind can be a complicating factor but it can be dealt with. I would rather get a whiff of spray than a face full of teeth and claws.

Did you see the second video? That bear was in a rage and as soon as the bear was hit with the spray it retreated. That bear was extremely intent and intense. There was a lot of spray left in those cans after it backed off. This brings up something else to think about. I you are with a buddy or buddies and you are jumped by a bear before having time to react, would you rather your buddies are spraying spray, or spraying lead at the bear with you underneath it?

Also, you might want to go back and look at the first video again. The guy operated the can with one hand including removing the safety tab.

Interestingly, I am the only one in this thread who has had an "intimate" experience with spray. As I said previously, before that experience I was very skeptical about sprays and figured that a gun was my best defense. I changed my way of thinking and I do know how to use a gun.

Earlier, I half seriously and half jokingly offered a wager to anyone who could successfully charge me while I was spraying them. If that would actually happen, I have little doubt the person would end up in the ER. Please do not attempt that. Don't even have someone directly give you a short burst as I suggested to someone else earlier. The best thing to do if you want to know what this stuff is like is to pick a calm day, spray a short burst and then start walking toward it.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm just trying to separate the wheat from the chaff on the subject so folks can make an informed decision based on facts and objectivity.

Unless the bear is bullet proof or manages to take me by surprise from behind I'm not going to worry about it because he'll already have at least five shots in him before he gets to me.

As for my buddies, I'm damned picky about who I go into the woods with and they will always be people I can count on not to panic or do something stupid.

As for the video, right hand on the can left hand used to pull the safety tab. That's why you see the safety tab in his left hand during the rest of the demonstration.

If I spent the next 20 years trying to master the use of the spray can I still would not be at the same level with them that I am with a handgun.

If I can kill a running 200lbs boar with a headshot at over 30 yards I'm pretty sure I can make the same shot on a charging bear at 1/3 that distance and achieve the same result.

If we ever go on a hunt together and find ourselves in a bad bear encounter you can rest assured that while you are deploying your bear spray I'll have ya covered!

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Got to agree. Like I sad, I've never had a encounter with a bear, but I would rather have a buddy with a firearm an take the chance on taking a bullet than prolonging the process an being seasoned to taste! Just my two cents!

DT

That is surely your call. In the second video, had the spray been deployed about 3 seconds earlier, I am confident that man would still be alive today. The same might be true if bullets were used to stop the bear. But, there is little doubt that the attacked mans chance of serious injury or death as a result of friendly fire is greatly increased with lead poisoning. That's just a plain fact, no way around it.

Now based on my KNOWLEDGE as to the outcome of actual bear attacks, if I am in your hunting party DO NOT fire lead in my direction if a bear pounces on me. Chances are very slim that bear will actually kill me unless it is hunting me for food. If you kill me with your bullet, then you can explain your actions to my friends and loved ones.