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Bear spray vs Bullets

What others carry or spray has never factored into what I decide to carry for bear defense. This is reaching pretty far out into never never land, for purposes of promoting bear spray over bullets. Yes, bullets can be efficient killers. That's why I rely on them.

If a buddy kills me with a bullet, then I needed a better buddy - not bear spray.

Paul, this whole discussion is reaching out into never-never land. How many people do you know that were ever attacked by a bear. Yeah, you know a couple of guys on the Treadwell case, but that's their job. i have lived here in Bozeman for 15 years and Great Falls for 6. I literally know hundreds of guys who, hunt, fish backpack, you name it and not one was attacked by a bear. I did kinda meet one guy who got his ***** mauled hunting North of the Park and managed to finally kill the griz with his 41.
 
Unless the bear is bullet proof or manages to take me by surprise from behind I'm not going to worry about it because he'll already have at least five shots in him before he gets to me.

As for my buddies, I'm damned picky about who I go into the woods with and they will always be people I can count on not to panic or do something stupid.

As for the video, right hand on the can left hand used to pull the safety tab. That's why you see the safety tab in his left hand during the rest of the demonstration.

If I spent the next 20 years trying to master the use of the spray can I still would not be at the same level with them that I am with a handgun.

If I can kill a running 200lbs boar with a headshot at over 30 yards I'm pretty sure I can make the same shot on a charging bear at 1/3 that distance and achieve the same result.

If we ever go on a hunt together and find ourselves in a bad bear encounter you can rest assured that while you are deploying your bear spray I'll have ya covered!

Wildrose, with all due respect, you have no idea how many shots you might get into a bear. You might be able to empty your clip or you might be smelling the bad breath of a bear while you're trying to reach for your side arm. I have had at least a half dozen experiences where if the bear decided to charge and attack me, I would have been at its mercy. I will add to that that I don't believe you have ever actually seen a bear in full out sprint. I have once and it is an incredible sight. It was just a dark brown blur going through the brush and snapping 3" dead branches like twigs. Fortunately it was going away form me and not toward me. I had a 60 lb pack on my back and had been trekking for about 3 hours in the mountains in very warm weather.

I don't know what video you were watching, but the one I posted, the guy had the spray can in his right hand and removed the safety tag with his right thumb and squeezed the trigger with his right finger. all one hand.

I appreciate you having my back, and as long as the bear isn't in close proximity to me, blast away with all you got. But if that bear gets on top of me, wait it out or run up to it and stick the muzzle in its ear. Very few attacks result in a fatality.
 
Paul, this whole discussion is reaching out into never-never land. How many people do you know that were ever attacked by a bear.

Too many. One is one too many. I know of two fatal maulings within 15 air miles of where I live, and the brown bears never fed on either of the victims. Bears tore off the tops of these men's skulls leaving their brains exposed. These two men weren't killed for food. Both of these bears made clean getaways. I knew one of these victims, and still own a Winchester M70 Featherweight, 7mm Mauser that I purchased from him. The bear killed him about 10 years after I purchased his rifle. He'd decided to get some exercise and hike out a well known horse trail off Funny River Road on a spring Sunday. I've hiked out that very horse trail myself several times. A few miles off the highway, he stopped, took his day pack off, and was preparing a bite to eat for lunch. A large brown bear evidently got the jump on him. He never returned. He was a very accomplished rifleman. An avid target shooter and hunter. The search party found him and his gear, his rifle, but no bear. The bear clearly killed him outright. No savage mauling. The bear tore portion of his skull loose/off. The bear was gone and never found.

I know of two additional men that would have been killed had they not killed the boars before the boars killed them. Again both maulings within 15 air miles of where I live. I knew one of these two men, and described his mauling earlier in this Thread. My brother knows the other man, and I also posted a link to the story of the boar that charged him. Both of these men survived their attacks with revolvers. One a .44 Magnum S&W, the other a .454 Casull Ruger Alaskan. The bear that was shot with the .44 Magnum was never found. The one shot with the .454 dropped in the middle of a gravel subdivision road.

While hunting on Kodiak Island several years back, another deer hunter was killed on Uganik Island by a brown bear, about 15 miles from where I was hunting.

Last spring my brother was flying to his remote house in Uganik Bay, on the NW side of Kodiak Island. He observed a boat on the east side of Sally Island about 6 miles from his house. When he arrived, his neighbor and he listened to the radio transmissions in Uganik Bay and learned that a man had just been mauled on Sally Island. The US Coast Guard was enroute. The mauling victims hunting partner shot and killed the sow brown bear while it was mauling his buddy with his own hunting rifle. Shot the bear in the rear quarters initially, causing the bear to reposition itself, and then shot it thru the shoulders. Next thing he knows another brown bear appears, a cub of the sow he'd just killed. He dispatches that bear as it approaches with another shot from his rifle. Good thing he didn't use up his can of bear spray on that first bear.

Bear maulings are a regular occurrence where I live and hunt. Victims seem to be killed maybe 20% of the time.

An older woman well known within the long distance/marathon running circles in Alaska was jogging up McHugh Creek Trail just south of Anchorage, with her son. I've been up that trail myself several times. A brown bear mauled and killed her. Her son approached and tried to assist her. The brown bear mauled and killed her son.

I could go on. I can provide links to these maulings, which were reported in the Alaskan media.

I posted earlier of a black bear that stalked up to within 20 feet of me while I was napping on a spring bear hunt. This bear came up from directly downwind. He followed my scent trail up to me. Fortunately, I raised my head just in time to see his two black ear tips slowly come into view off the edge of the knowl I was resting on. The last 7 yards of his approach, we were in complete view of one another. His eyes were locked on mine. Step by step. I killed him at 20 feet with a 7mm 160gr Nosler Accubond from a 7mm Rem Mag. He charged off 30 yards and collapsed, down within about 6 seconds from the time the bullet struck home.

I get the impression you believe bear maulings and attacks happen so infrequently that there's little cause for concern. The bears where I live, play, and hunt often play for keeps.

I can go on. A ladies husband from our church was charged by a large boar brown bear up Fuller Lakes Trail 30 miles east of where I live. I've hiked up this trail a number of times, and packed a black bear back out down this trail once. He was with several friends. Steve Devito shot and killed the boar while it was headlong into its charge at point blank range. A friend was also shooting at the bear. These aren't boo boo bears. The large boars with wide enough jaw spreads can crush a man's skull in one bite. The smaller ones try but end up ripping off pieces of scalp, or the entire scalp.

Al Thompson, a local game warden was mauled out the Funny River Horse trail 35 years ago. Forgot about him. My brother knew him well and I had also met him a couple of times. He was camping with his wife hunting moose when a large boar brown bear came into their shelter in the middle of the night and grabbed his wife. Al instinctively grabbed the bear by the head, and then the bear grabbed him and drug him out and off. This bear didn't kill Al, but gave him a terrible whooping. Being as Al was a game warden, and folks were too kindly toward game wardens back in the day, locals kindly nicknamed Al Thompson "Bear Bait Al". The first time I met Al was when I was doing a soils investigation on property he owned, preparing it to be subdivided. He was in his Fish and Wildlife clothing. When he took his cap off, I notice about 5 separate hair part lines on his scalp, and there was evidence of scarring on his forehead. This boar must not have crunched down on Al's face, because his face was well balanced. Hardly disfigured at all.

And then there was the Riverside Auto Parts owner (Gary) mauled down by Ninilchik during a moose hunt. He heard a grunt, thought it might be a moose. He poked his nose out thru some alders only to face two adult brown bears coming in full charge. Gets mauled pretty good. Seems like he got off a shot to no avail. Gary had weird hair parts on his head also.

So yes, I know folks that have been mauled, and worse yet, I've known folks killed by bears. The odds are good I'll know a few more as time goes on. Bear maulings are a fairly regular occurrence. I consider them a real possibility, and I prepare for them as if my life depends on it. Because it might. I'd rather not offer myself up, and make an easy victim. And if a bear attacks me and I can kill it, others will be thankful for making the area safer for all. At least two separate individuals thanked me for killing that black bear. It was near a heavily used hiking trail in the Kenai Mountains.

I prefer to kill problem bears with a firearm, than take the chance of smartening one up with pepper spray for the next victim. The majority of the folks that live where I live feel likewise. And the one's that don't quickly change their perspectives on that matter after they or someone they know has a bad bear experience.
 
Wildrose, with all due respect, you have no idea how many shots you might get into a bear. You might be able to empty your clip or you might be smelling the bad breath of a bear while you're trying to reach for your side arm. I have had at least a half dozen experiences where if the bear decided to charge and attack me, I would have been at its mercy. I will add to that that I don't believe you have ever actually seen a bear in full out sprint. I have once and it is an incredible sight. It was just a dark brown blur going through the brush and snapping 3" dead branches like twigs. Fortunately it was going away form me and not toward me. I had a 60 lb pack on my back and had been trekking for about 3 hours in the mountains in very warm weather.

I don't know what video you were watching, but the one I posted, the guy had the spray can in his right hand and removed the safety tag with his right thumb and squeezed the trigger with his right finger. all one hand.

I appreciate you having my back, and as long as the bear isn't in close proximity to me, blast away with all you got. But if that bear gets on top of me, wait it out or run up to it and stick the muzzle in its ear. Very few attacks result in a fatality.
I know how quickly and how accurately I can employ and fire a handgun under great duress so I'll go with my experience vs what others imagine.

I have seen bears in a full sprint, I have seen them at a full charge as well, fortunately the latter was on film rather than up close and personal.

Speed wise they are about equal to a large boar hog in a charge so again, yes I understand exactly what I'm talking about.

You may want to watch the video again. The yellow safety tab was pulled with his left hand and remains in his left hand throughout the demonstration.
 
I know 2 guys that have been under a bear. I work with one, and hunt a lot with the other.

Both hunting related one followed up on an archery kill, too soon, too close. Bear shook him by a leg real good, but really just wanted to die, and walked off a little ways and did.

The other was a hound hunt where the bear bayed up on the ground, pretty close less than 20 yards probably. Gun in hand or maybe no shot. Single action .44 magnum. Eye contact between man and bear nearly a dead heat. A combination of good shot placement, and good hounds the bear moved off and died leaving the hunter unscratched. Really impossible to say what the bears intent was.

They move incredibly fast, and I've seen one get up from a well placed .375 H&H, so it's not that I believe a handgun is a stopper, but I do think a bullet in the vitals of a black bear will start the clock on how soon the bear just wants out. Grizzlies? My experience with them is too limited.

Then again I could just be stuck in my ways. MontanaRifleman has made some good points, enough so if I'm ever in a no firearm situation, I'll be more comfortable with spray.
 
MontanaRifleman has made some good points, enough so if I'm ever in a no firearm situation, I'll be more comfortable with spray.

Bear spray is what I would choose also, if I was prevented from carrying a firearm. It's likely the 2nd best bear defense tool. I might even buy some bear spray someday, should I lose confidence with firearms. I don't like the idea of having to replace the cans of bear spray every 3-4 years. I don't care for the fact that I can't know if the can will discharge until I fire it, and that the manufacturers generally recommend against test firing their bear spray. I don't know if that's because they want you to buy lots of bear spray, if it's because they want you to travel with a full can, or because they don't want to risk their spray nozzle plugging up due to firing the can and then storing it for another 3-4 years.

I believe bear spray, in the hands of a knowledgeable user, a user that keeps their wits about them, will repel a bear with a functional can of bear spray most of the time. Bear spray is likely the best defensive tool against bears for those that don't know how to use a firearm, or choose not to use a firearm, yet venture where wild bears live.

But it seems like this thread was started to discuss the merits of bear spray versus bullets.

For those wedded to bear spray, it might be wise to purchase and carry two cans, instead of only one. I personally know of two cans that failed to fire. Hopefully one out of two will fire when needed. Also, if you expend one can on one bear, that will leave you with the second can when the second bear shows up. Versus bullets, I've typically got enough bullets to take on a number of bear.
 
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I get the impression you believe bear maulings and attacks happen so infrequently that there's little cause for concern. The bears where I live and hunt play often play for keeps.

No, that's not my belief. There is always cause for concern, or more appropriately awareness. That's why at one time I packed a 41. after awhile i just got used to being in bear country and didn't pack anything until after a number of encounters I felt I was pushing my luck. Spent a lot of time in the Park and I could not carry a firearm so I got spray, and you know the rest of the story. One should be prepared.

Alaska does have a higher concentration of bears than this country and you have probably lived there longer than I have here. I also know "of" numerous people who have been mauled and some killed by bears around here but it is a very rare occurrence. But i do not personally know anyone who has. There are a good deal more people injured by bison in YNP than bears but those never make the headlines. Nothing like hearing about a mauling to raise the hairs on the back of your neck. I guarantee you that a lot more folks perish from back country accidents and the elements than by critters. Do we have long emotional threads on preventing hypothermia - the number one killer of hunters, fishermen and recreationalists? No. my point is that there is a big imbalance here. A boogy man imbalance.

I am sorry for those you knew who were killed by bears and it sounds like some of them didn't have much of a chance.

Now, you said I was reaching into never-never land with the scenario of a someone in a party being jumped by bear. I don't think so and that is exactly what happened to Mark Matheny. If you want to talk bear attacks, that is a very real possibility and if you've read the previous posts, you know how I feel on that.
 
I know how quickly and how accurately I can employ and fire a handgun under great duress so I'll go with my experience vs what others imagine.

I have seen bears in a full sprint, I have seen them at a full charge as well, fortunately the latter was on film rather than up close and personal.

Speed wise they are about equal to a large boar hog in a charge so again, yes I understand exactly what I'm talking about.

You may want to watch the video again. The yellow safety tab was pulled with his left hand and remains in his left hand throughout the demonstration.

The yellow zip strip is a retail safety thing that also lets you know that the unit has not been tampered with. You remove that prior to going to the field. The safety tab is the flat plastic tab that the guy pulled back with his thumb. That is the safety tab. One handed operation.

Really? You have personally seen a bear in full sprint? I have seen a lot of bears and only saw one in full out sprint. Do you have a link to any video that you have seen a bear in full sprint? The videos I have seen of bears galloping and charging are not full out sprints.

Regardless, no matter how fast you are with a gun, you are only going to get as much time as you get and you will not have control of that. Like I said, you might have time to empty your clip and you might have time to pray while the bear is knawing on your skull.

Now, go back and look at the second video and honestly tell me, which option would have been better.... spray or lead. There was a helluva lot of jerky movement going on there.
 
Bear spray is what I would choose also, if I was prevented from carrying a firearem. It's likely the 2nd best bear defense tool.

Ya know what. Both options are good ones. I happen to think spray is the best of the two. But chances are if you have the time to react you will survive with either. Heck, chances are that you will survive without either lightbulb
 
The yellow zip strip is a retail safety thing that also lets you know that the unit has not been tampered with. You remove that prior to going to the field. The safety tab is the flat plastic tab that the guy pulled back with his thumb. That is the safety tab. One handed operation.

Really? You have personally seen a bear in full sprint? I have seen a lot of bears and only saw one in full out sprint. Do you have a link to any video that you have seen a bear in full sprint? The videos I have seen of bears galloping and charging are not full out sprints.

Regardless, no matter how fast you are with a gun, you are only going to get as much time as you get and you will not have control of that. Like I said, you might have time to empty your clip and you might have time to pray while the bear is knawing on your skull.

Now, go back and look at the second video and honestly tell me, which option would have been better.... spray or lead. There was a helluva lot of jerky movement going on there.
Yes full sprint in person, bear fleeing four dogs on it's butt.

I've also seen quite a few on video breaking into a full takedown charge pouncing on an elk or caribou (different videos).

Which would be better? Without a doubt a well placed shot which isn't difficult to do even in the midst of an attack IF you have the right mindset and training.

What is the best choice in any given incident is going to depend entirely on how the incident goes down and the experience and mentality of the people involved.

Have a plan.

Train to the plan.

Be committed to executing the plan.

Execute the plan.

Most of self defense is simply being mentally prepared and committed to your course of action and above all don't panic.

I see a great many disadvantages to the use of spray so given a choice I'll be carrying and use a firearm.

In the video of the bear killing the man it took less than five seconds for the death blow to be delivered and even with two men blasting him with bear spray he continued long enough to ensure his victim was injured badly enough to ensure his death.

And that was a tame bear, not one protecting it's territory, not suffering from starvation or just waking up hungry in the spring. Just a tame bear who for a few seconds got carried away.
 
Now, you said I was reaching into never-never land with the scenario of a someone in a party being jumped by bear. I don't think so and that is exactly what happened to Mark Matheny. If you want to talk bear attacks, that is a very real possibility and if you've read the previous posts, you know how I feel on that.

Mark,
My reference to never never land was in response to your contention that because a buddy might shoot a bear mauling victim with a bullet, that this is further reasoning as to why bear spray should be considered the better/preferable bear defense option.

At least that what I interpreted you to be contending. I'd never select bear spray or bullets based on the possibility that another person would kill me with one or the other during a bear attack. That's the near equivalent of never never land in my mind. The bear is the greater threat, and I'll select the tool that best eliminates/neutralizes the bear. If my buddy kills me with a bullet while I'm being mauled, then that would be my buddy's fault. And I should have selected a better buddy. If I'm effective with the bullets, I won't experience the mauling in the first place. That's my plan.

Not sure what you're saying above, with reference to someone in a party being jumped by a bear. I think we've misunderstood one another somewhere along the way.
 
Ya know what. Both options are good ones. I happen to think spray is the best of the two. But chances are if you have the time to react you will survive with either. Heck, chances are that you will survive without either lightbulb

Are you willing to stake your life on the chance that you are gonna survive without either? I'm not. If I'm in a area that I can't carry a firearm (ae, parks or something of that sort) then the best thing I can do( an I speck for myself) is not put my self in the situation of the possibility of an attack! Like I've said before, I've never been in the situation an hopefully never will, but if I do, I choose lead!

DT
 
Are you willing to stake your life on the chance that you are gonna survive without either? I'm not. If I'm in a area that I can't carry a firearm (ae, parks or something of that sort) then the best thing I can do( an I speck for myself) is not put my self in the situation of the possibility of an attack! Like I've said before, I've never been in the situation an hopefully never will, but if I do, I choose lead!

DT

Don't read into to it what I didn't say. I believe in being prepared and I carry spray in most of my backcountry excursions and recommend anyone else does as well (or a gun ). That fact is that the great majority of bear attacks (which are rare) do not end with a fatality. And that is why I don't want anyone shooting lead at a bear that might be on top of me, unless they can be absolutely certain I would not be hit by friendly fire.

So if you could only carry spray in a park and not a gun, you would not venture into the backcountry? Too bad, millions of folks have gone into the backcountry of YNP without a gun with very few bad bear encounters. You might want to consider giving up driving. You have a much higher risk of serious injury or death on the roads, especially during times when drunks are on the road. Seriously.

BTW, I'm all in favor of the right to carry firearms in the parks. IMO, that is a 2nd A right. You can now take firearms into YNP but I'm not sure about carrying and I'm not sure what restrictions might be in place.
 
Don't read into to it what I didn't say. I believe in being prepared and I carry spray in most of my backcountry excursions and recommend anyone else does as well (or a gun ). That fact is that the great majority of bear attacks (which are rare) do not end with a fatality. And that is why I don't want anyone shooting lead at a bear that might be on top of me, unless they can be absolutely certain I would not be hit by friendly fire.

So if you could only carry spray in a park and not a gun, you would not venture into the backcountry? Too bad, millions of folks have gone into the backcountry of YNP without a gun with very few bad bear encounters. You might want to consider giving up driving. You have a much higher risk of serious injury or death on the roads, especially during times when drunks are on the road. Seriously.

BTW, I'm all in favor of the right to carry firearms in the parks. IMO, that is a 2nd A right. You can now take firearms into YNP but I'm not sure about carrying and I'm not sure what restrictions might be in place.
I did read what you said. I responded. We are talking about bear spray vs bullets. As far as hiking into the country, to each his own. I will never say or try to deter anybody form doing what he or she wants. Just because I'm not for it doesn't mean others are not either. Just my choice. I love the back country as much as others. Like I also said, I've never been put in that situation an hope I don't! If I do(again) I chose lead. Just because I'm making a differant choice doesn't mean it's a wrong choice. Again, what works for one doesn't mean it works for others.

DT
 
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