Bear protection handguns?

[memtb]

On the subject of Phil. Here's a post from several years back on 24hourcampfire when the subject of bears, charges, bullets, and calibers was being discussed!

There were several very knowledgeable Alaskan hunters/guides involved in the thread! memtb

First off I guess we should discuss charges. I get "charged" a half a dozen times each summer while fishing. the bears are simply warning me to go away. These "charges" are supposed to be seen - that is the point - and in those times the shooter usually has time to find a point of aim IF they have handled it before and know what is going on but for some reason charging bears tend to scare most people which rattles their thinking and aiming. If one has the experience , understanding of bear behavier (they are not alot different in that respect than a stranger's dog) and presence of mind to stand their ground these confrontations can and should be settled without having to shoot the bear. I have let bears come to within ten feet of me - but they were exceptions and I felt confident of what was going on. twenty five or thirty feet is normally close enough and closer than most bears want to approach you.
Now on real charges- Many years ago I had all sorts of theories on exactly where I would shoot a bear but I have since learned that when push really comes to shove and that really ****ed off big bear is only a few feet from your muzzle and coming fast any hit in the middle of the critter looks tempting and is most often the only one you can make -if that. Naturally a shot to the skull will instantly stop them but the head generally is moving and is a small target. Fortunately it is usualy centered on the animal. I still try to aim - point is more accurate - directly in line with the shoulders and hope to either hit the skull or break the neck, spine or at least shoulder.
I have also found big bore bullets tend to noticibly impact the bear more. Bears do often seem succeptible to velocity and "shock" but not always.

---

Phil Shoemaker
Alaska Master Guide,
Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor
FAA Master pilot
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

 

[memtb]

Another post, very recent it's still warm , by Phil. memtb

I am well aware that expanding bullets that open wide or shed pieces and "dump energy" can be spectacular killers.
The problem is where and when they expand and no handgun has the energy to actually stop massive animals unless it hits the central nervous system.
Bullet penetration , and placement, are more reliable and controllable.

---

Phil Shoemaker
Alaska Master Guide,
Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor
FAA Master pilot
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

 

[VLD Pilot]

On the subject of Phil. Here's a post from several years back on 24hourcampfire when the subject of bears, charges, bullets, and calibers was being discussed!

There were several very knowledgeable Alaskan hunters/guides involved in the thread! memtb

First off I guess we should discuss charges. I get "charged" a half a dozen times each summer while fishing. the bears are simply warning me to go away. These "charges" are supposed to be seen - that is the point - and in those times the shooter usually has time to find a point of aim IF they have handled it before and know what is going on but for some reason charging bears tend to scare most people which rattles their thinking and aiming. If one has the experience , understanding of bear behavier (they are not alot different in that respect than a stranger's dog) and presence of mind to stand their ground these confrontations can and should be settled without having to shoot the bear. I have let bears come to within ten feet of me - but they were exceptions and I felt confident of what was going on. twenty five or thirty feet is normally close enough and closer than most bears want to approach you.
Now on real charges- Many years ago I had all sorts of theories on exactly where I would shoot a bear but I have since learned that when push really comes to shove and that really ****ed off big bear is only a few feet from your muzzle and coming fast any hit in the middle of the critter looks tempting and is most often the only one you can make -if that. Naturally a shot to the skull will instantly stop them but the head generally is moving and is a small target. Fortunately it is usualy centered on the animal. I still try to aim - point is more accurate - directly in line with the shoulders and hope to either hit the skull or break the neck, spine or at least shoulder.
I have also found big bore bullets tend to noticibly impact the bear more. Bears do often seem succeptible to velocity and "shock" but not always.

---

Phil Shoemaker
Alaska Master Guide,
Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor
FAA Master pilot
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

I don't have the experience with bears that Phil has in one of his toes. Insignificant by comparison and mine are strictly black bears with the occasional experience in Montana with a couple Grizzly bears that didn't pose a threat. I've had bluff charges by black bears. Couple on bait sites and an actual female (with cubs) scaled the tree I was in sitting in my treestand. Never drew my pistol in any of the scenarios but the bear spray was deployed on the female. It sent her and cubs off in a hurry. The other bear incidents were walking into a bait and both those bears held their ground popping jaws and huffing. Both eventually walked away and once they got 30-40 yards out, ran till out of sight. I had the pucker effect on all these experiences so I cannot imagine one with a bear that is 3-4 times my (240lb) size. All anyone can be is prepared for an encounter and always be aware of your surroundings in ALL bear country. Cubs with MaMa's are the biggest danger IMO in most cases from my experience. At least with black bears. I have to imagine with any bear. I'm very impressed by this gentleman's experience and time in that profession. 45 years in Alaska with his entire family without one other incident involving any Bear injuries is pretty amazing. That interview describing the incident sure could have been much worse.

 

[Calvin45]

On the subject of Phil. Here's a post from several years back on 24hourcampfire when the subject of bears, charges, bullets, and calibers was being discussed!

There were several very knowledgeable Alaskan hunters/guides involved in the thread! memtb

First off I guess we should discuss charges. I get "charged" a half a dozen times each summer while fishing. the bears are simply warning me to go away. These "charges" are supposed to be seen - that is the point - and in those times the shooter usually has time to find a point of aim IF they have handled it before and know what is going on but for some reason charging bears tend to scare most people which rattles their thinking and aiming. If one has the experience , understanding of bear behavier (they are not alot different in that respect than a stranger's dog) and presence of mind to stand their ground these confrontations can and should be settled without having to shoot the bear. I have let bears come to within ten feet of me - but they were exceptions and I felt confident of what was going on. twenty five or thirty feet is normally close enough and closer than most bears want to approach you.
Now on real charges- Many years ago I had all sorts of theories on exactly where I would shoot a bear but I have since learned that when push really comes to shove and that really ****ed off big bear is only a few feet from your muzzle and coming fast any hit in the middle of the critter looks tempting and is most often the only one you can make -if that. Naturally a shot to the skull will instantly stop them but the head generally is moving and is a small target. Fortunately it is usualy centered on the animal. I still try to aim - point is more accurate - directly in line with the shoulders and hope to either hit the skull or break the neck, spine or at least shoulder.
I have also found big bore bullets tend to noticibly impact the bear more. Bears do often seem succeptible to velocity and "shock" but not always.

---

Phil Shoemaker
Alaska Master Guide,
Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor
FAA Master pilot
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

I get a kick out of his wording…"but FOR SOME REASON charging bears tend to scare most people". Geez I wonder what the reason could be?

A back up gun AND a backup pair of shorts would both be in my required items list methinks

 

[VLD Pilot]

I get a kick out of his wording…"but FOR SOME REASON charging bears tend to scare most people". Geez I wonder what the reason could be?

A back up gun AND a backup pair of shorts would both be in my required items list methinks

It's a funny statement (**** your pants) regarding being scared in a scenario like these discussed. I can't say I even came close to soiling my shorts but I did have a fear undescribable in the moment but it manifested after the incident more than during. I felt more of a defense mode kick in when retreating wasn't an option. Kinda like if you've ever had to put out a house fire (which I have once). Same exact feeling. Urgency to make sure the outcome is the best possible more so than actually being scared shitless. Bear spray, weapon and sidearm. No extra shorts although they are always at camp.

 

[Mark37082]

This is the closest I have come to a bear charge. Oh wait, that's my 120 lb dog…..

 

[asd9055]

I have never faced danger by any animal, 2-legged or four. And I hope to never face it.
What I got out of the interview is, 44 mag, if you can't hit the target does no good, but four 9mm flat nose hard cast did the job. So at least a 9mm with the right bullet as long as you can have several follow ups on "target" Go As large as you can with the firearm you can hit the "target" repeatedly. My 44 has 8 3/8" barrel. Not ideal. So I would take either my FNP 45 or Sig 229 40S&W, with the appropriate bullet. The first holds 14 rounds and the second 12. And I practice follow shots with two and one hand.

 

[HARPERC]

The problem is where and when they expand and no handgun has the energy to actually stop massive animals unless it hits the central nervous system. Bullet penetration , and placement, are more reliable and controllable.

---

Phil Shoemaker
Alaska Master Guide,
Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor
FAA Master pilot
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Truth

 

[Calvin45]

This is the closest I have come to a bear charge. Oh wait, that's my 120 lb dog…..
View attachment 569950

He looks all cozy in that blanket thing! Look at that grin!!!

 

[Pro2A]

Just listened to the interview with Phil Shoemaker. Now I'm seriously contemplating the need for an 8-shot 357 Magnum… Taurus makes a pretty slick 4" option

Had an experience with a deer that didn't exhibit his ammo performance. Cliff's Notes, shot downed large buck at point blank range 9mm Federal Defensive ammo, one of my EDCs..... Kimber Micro 9.....three times. All three rounds were on the outside of the hide buried in the hair., advertisement picture perfectly mushroomed...zero, nada, none, zilch penetration. Deer just flinched each time. So much for defensive ammo. Had that been a bad guy with a leather jacket, he would have just been ****ed.

 

[Pdvdh]

Anybody thinks Phil is recommending 9mm with any bullet, to stop a completely determined brown or grizzly bear charge, misinterpreted his interview statements.

I recall him stating it would be suicidal to go into the brush after any wounded bear with the 9mm.

He killed a less than determined brown bear, a bear that wasn't coming after him, with multiple lung shots from a 9mm. That bear offered Phil ample time to make multiple broadside lung shots. Fortunate for his clients this bear never engaged in physical contact. No mauling whatsoever during the period of time from the first shot fired until loss of consciousness.

Had this bear lit into his clients over that period of time, I doubt Phil would be discussing the incident in any interview. Out of respect for the maimed, or dead.

He did demonstrate that multiple 9mm bullets capable of penetrating both lungs of a broadside profile brown bear can kill the bear. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

[VLD Pilot]

Anybody thinks Phil is recommending 9mm with any bullet, to stop a completely determined brown or grizzly bear charge, misinterpreted his interview statements.

I recall him stating it would be suicidal to go into the brush after any wounded bear with the 9mm.

At least stupid

 

[wilkup]

Had an experience with a deer that didn't exhibit his ammo performance. Cliff's Notes, shot downed large buck at point blank range 9mm Federal Defensive ammo, one of my EDCs..... Kimber Micro 9.....three times. All three rounds were on the outside of the hide buried in the hair., advertisement picture perfectly mushroomed...zero, nada, none, zilch penetration. Deer just flinched each time. So much for defensive ammo. Had that been a bad guy with a leather jacket, he would have just been ****ed.

I currently carry the same Buffalobore 9mm Outdoorsman in my G17 as Phil used while out in the hills, not the Underwood 124gr +p+ gold dots I pack around town.
That said, there's basically a 0% chance I'll ever require that round to shoot an enraged grizzly bear. Far more likely it'd be used on a strung out human cooking smack back in the hills.

 

[HRM Johnny]

This is the closest I have come to a bear charge. Oh wait, that's my 120 lb dog…..
View attachment 569950

GOOD DOG!!!