Be Careful with RL 22

[MagnumManiac]

Well, you've answered the question, Lapua cases have LESS capacity than Winchester cases, as I said there was a parameter difference between loads, don't ever assume what works in another brass brand will work in the brand you're using. Reading your last post, it is clear that you do not realise how much difference there can be between case capacities in different brands. As a result of those differences there CAN be a 5gr difference between loads, even in a small case like the 243AI.
I feel you are pushing the limit trying these very slow powders, you would be better off with slightly faster powders.
After looking at a few manuals, it appears that in the 243 with 105gr pills, 42gr of RE22 was max, so you should be starting there, slow powders like RE22 don't like a lot of air space, they actually work best slightly compressed.

Cheers.
gun)

 

[panama]

I SHOOT AND BUILD AI'S. I HAVE FOUND AS MUCH AS 12-TO 16 GRAINS DIFF. BETWEEN REM,AND WIN. CASE'S BY THAT I MEAN THE WIN. ARE LIGHTER BY THAT MUCH, FED,PMC AND REM ARE WITHIN 4-6 GRAINS DEP. ON LOT# MY 3006 AI( AND I BY NO MEANS RECOMMEND THIS LOAD TO ANY ONE) BUT I WORKED IT UP AND HAVE FIRED A SET OF 50 CASES 29 TIMES WITH 58.gr OF ONE LOT OF IMR 4831 MANUFAC. DATE 1974. THE LOAD WAS 58.gr.FED 215 190 HORN.INTERLK. L.O.A FOR MY GUN 3.315 VELO. AT 15FT.FROM THE MUZZLE 2945 ES WAS 17FPS 5 SHOTS .697 @100YDS PRIMER POCTS. ARE FINE NOT LOOSE. ALSO WIN. CASES ARE HARDER AND WILL NEED TO BE ANNEALED SOONER THAN THE OTHER CASES TO KEEP FROM SPLITTING AT THE NECK, THEY SEEM TO WORK HARDEN AFTER 3-4 RELOADS WHEN BEING PUSHED TO THE EDGE AS "WE" SOME TIMES TEND TO DO, REALLY JUST SPEAKING FOR MY SELF BECAUSE "I" KNOW THE REST OF U ALL KEEP IT "SAFE"!! AND I DID HAVE A LOT OF IMR 4831 THAT WAS 300 FPS SLOWER THAN THE 74 MAN. DATE.USEING THE SAME LOADING SEQ. I DID SPEAK WITH A IMR REP AND HE DID SAY THAT MOIST. CONTENT WOULD MAKE A DIFF. I JUST GOT RID OF THAT LOT. HOPE THIS HELPS,

 

[Mikecr]

I think Greg sees his load as having a good bit of safety cushion in an AI case, which has ~4gr more capacity than the parent case.
It wasn't clear to me if either of the Lapua or Win cases had already been fire-formed to AI capacity.
If not, the initial confinements between them could play a role in his results.
If they had already been AI formed, and he's just working up with a new lot of RL-22, then this indicates a change in the powder to me.

How bout it Greg?

 

[Greg Duerr]

Well I will tell you this, I used RL 22, 40gr with the Berger bullet seated at the same COAL as The dummy round sent to me my the Smith, to Fire Form the .243 cases. I was very much encouraged as I was getting super accurate three shot groups @100 Yds. .309, .281, .256 But when I Started with the 40gr in the Ackley cases the groups opened up to about .8 then at 42gr I went 3@ .564
Im new at all of this. It's still hard for me to believe that from a Winchester case to a Lapua case you can get such wide change in difference . 49gr to 43.5 5.5gr difference.
When I was reloading for my 22 Hornet we used Winchester brass because we could not get the same load into a Remington case.
Thinking back I will tell you this and you can give me your feed back...............

When I first Started with the Lapua brass I was Fire Forming the .243 cases shooting 38gr of IMR 4064 and a Berger 80gr................Out here finding any powder is tuff...........So that's what I used. 20% of the Lapua brass with that load blew the Primer pockets..............Then when I backed off and got some usable Ackley formed brass I started at the recommended loads for 46gr and worked up using RL 22 and the 105 I got great accuracy all at .5 but every case was trashed because the HIGH Pressure was blowing the Pockets...................I was at a loss. After going Down to 40gr and working up the groups were sad however they started getting a lot better as the Pressure went up but past the 43.5 gr. and the cases were gone......

So, I have a new lot of RL 22 that I have loaded plus this weekend will be trying some H4831
We will see.

 

[d11r529]

I too had a hard time believing that there would be that much difference between brass. It's a good thing I worked up my load for my 243 win with Laupa brass, worked up until I found pressure signs, check velocity and it was higher then I thought it should be so backed off one grain if I remember right (IMR 4350, 105 berger) to get the velocity that I wanted. I then loaded Winchester brass with everything the same except the brass, at 1000 yards the Laupa rounds hit 20 to 24 inches higher - same bullet, same powder, same primer, same gun. Get some Winchester brass, pick a SAFE load and try it for yourself.

 

[Greg Duerr]

Well I asked the Smith that built the rifle and he told me that Lapua brass is thicker and has less volume that Nosler is similar to Winchester.
I tried the Nosler brass and it was blowing the pockets at 44.0gr.............I ordered up some Winchester brass and when I get it in I will try the 44gr load and IF the pockets are blown then I would assume that the jury is in and its just a bad batch of RL 22 powder.

I ordered some H4831SC and Some H4350 to try out.....................


an adventure................WE will see....................However my deer season opens on the 10th of October ...........................

 

[Greg Duerr]

OK I tried something new ...........I got some new RL 22 and tried some Nosler cases...................Well I left the Range more confused than when I got there.

The new RL 22 Maxed out at 43gr That's with the New Fire Formed Nosler brass and the NEW RL 22 At this charge I was getting 3200 fps. I did not shoot for accuracy..................


Then I tried RL 25 the primer pockets were blown

at 47.0gr The Berger Manual lists 45.6gr as the Max in a Standard 243 at 47gr I was getting 3259fps in the Ackley Cases

The Berger Manual says that with a 105 45.6gr of RL 25 velocity should be close to 2938

At this point .............I will wait until I receive the new .243 Winchester Brass and the New H4831SC and the H4350

One other thing I have some NEW Hornady brass So I loaded up 42gr of the New RL 22 in the Standard new Hornady cases and checked them out also...........

Berger list 43.9 as the Max recommended load in a .243 with the 105
velocity at 2907 I was getting 3091FPS

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

Sure but for one batch of RL 22 that Maxes out at 49.0 to another batch that maxes out at 43.0 Give me a break all this in the same rifle......................

This is just an example of POOR quality control from Alliant................

same thing happened to my 338win with h4350 and 285 hdy bullets the other day. Info from another site member was that my rifle should be able to take at least 66 grains of h4350 and his had gone to 68 when he worked the load up... I was loosening pockets by 64 and we blew a pocket out at 66 grains. 68 might damage my action... The only reason I was using h4350 is accuracy was rather poor with rl22; I'll be re-working the load with rl17 and rl19.
all powders and rifles have this problem to an extent... that is why you work your loads up.

 

[Greg Duerr]

You shoot RL 19 in your .338 I would guess that you would use RL25

Well I'm at wits end.............................I'm getting some new Winchester cases and some new H4350 and 4831 At this point my best loads are NOT in the Ackley cases but in the Standard 243.

 

[Barrelnut]

Greg,

Just noticed you are in Reno. Checked and the high was 90' there today. I'm pretty sure RL22 is temp sensitive. What was the temp when your smith made the initial loads? Might help explain the extraordinary speeds and blown primers you are getting. I would add 2 FPS for each degree change.

 

[Greg Duerr]

Might be ................it was hot but I shoot in the Shade, our range has a roof. I shoot early in the Morning at 8am. Its just that Im pretty much blowing pockets at standard .243 loads in the Ackley formed cases. Even went to RL 25 and was still blowing Primes at 1.4gr over the Max load in the Berger Manual for the Standard .243......................

Was told to use Winchester brass,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that might be the issue. I have some will fire form them tus and load them up with RL 22 Starting at 40gr which is 3gr under the Berger manual Max load for the standard .243 and work up.

Now the Question is.........What happens if the Winchester brass makes no difference?

Then my Hunting load will be 40gr of RL 22 in the standard .243 case shooting the 105 Berger ...............that load gave me NO pressure and super accuracy....
Averaging 3 shot groups at .283

After the shot I toss the Ackley cases because they are worthless and so use to me

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

Greg,

Just noticed you are in Reno. Checked and the high was 90' there today. I'm pretty sure RL22 is temp sensitive. What was the temp when your smith made the initial loads? Might help explain the extraordinary speeds and blown primers you are getting. I would add 2 FPS for each degree change.

yep, rl series will get you into trouble if you are getting into high temps. if you are pushing it too hard already.. If you account for the 60-80 fps variance you will get ( from 0 to 100 f) and adjust your loads so they aren't too hot (no matter what happens) rl series is the best powder I've been able to burn. Vit is close, and ramshot will work for me at times too. I do not burn much single base ( IMR and H) if there is a double base powder that is at the burn rate I want that fits well in the case. I have a good bit of single base around in addition to my rl (heck, I just bought a keg of 7828 the other day), but I will use rl first if it works for the application. I can usually get the same or better speed from rl with milder pressures.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f28/4000-fps-7mm-stw-w-140-bullet-109862/index7.html
this thread has a few pressure graphs I made with my old stw and factory loads, rl25, and i7828.

A good rule of thumb is to stay 5% down on powder charge to account for variances. I don't go quite that far but I'll usually end up at least 2-3 % down as it is easier on everything. It is far better to go with a bigger chambering and loaf it than hot rod one and put extra wear into everything.

 

[Greg Duerr]

IF RL is that sensitive to Temp God help the guys that hunt Coastal Deer when its 80 degrees out....................

Its Just that im getting HIGH pressure at a few gr above the Max with a standard .243 in the Ackley Case

 

[MagnumManiac]

Going to an even slower powder is NOT going to fix your problem. Slower powders will have even WORSE pressure excursions, contrary to what many believe. It sounds to me that you're having ignition problems and the powder is NOT burning progressively.
This is why I would never recommend an AI cartridge to a novice handloader, just because a HANDLOADING GUIDE says 'x' amount of powder is max, does not mean it is in EVERY rifle.
How are you fireforming your brass, with the bullets into the lands or not?
Are you seating your fire formed cases/loads the SAME as your fire forming loads?
Have you measured your throat length?
Have you measured your case necks before and after firing?

There is a parameter here that just doesn't add up.

Cheers.
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