Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

[Robert K]

Eric,
Thank you for your reply, I'll do as you suggested

Robert K

 

[dewiseman]

I too have been in a situation like phorwath, a few years back I was hunting bear from a treestand over bait and shot a good sized bear at about thirtyfive yards with a 160 gr remington factory ammo out of a 308. Upon recovery of the bear we found that that bullet had come apart going through the bears ribs ( broad side shot one inch behind the shoulder blade) and had completely come apart and did not penetrate the skin on the far side. The bullet never reached his heart where it was headed and instead looked like bird shot had hit his lungs. I was very glad to be in that tree stand rather than on the ground , face to face with him. Since that time I have only used bullets that I am confident will stay together well at any distance. Thats my preferance and with that in mind I have been working up loads with the Barnes TSX for an upcoming moose hunt in BC. With the help of some of the guy's here I have achieved a grouping of just over 1/4 inch at one hundred yards. TSX's appear to be very accurate and I have confidence in their ability to give deep penetration on large came at high velocities both near and far.

 

[eltorro]

I believe a deep penetration bullet has its advantages. In thick cover, where shots are sometimes iffy, or where the animals of a larger size. I had a situation with a cow moose, where I needed something that would get the job done.... but the only ammo I had was Hornady's SST. After two hours of searching in a swamp, in middle of Canada's November, I promissed myself I will always carry some ammo for situations like theese. I think Berger or A-Max are the way to go for long range. I load some tough bullets for up-close, and all I care is to match the trajectory for up to 150yds.
Do you think a berger (30 cal, 168gr) would have penetrated better in a qarter-towards shot that the SST I was using?

 

[royinidaho]

well, here's one for ya.

Young and up and coming LRHr.

The all around gun for all 48 state animals per O'Connor

130 Sierra boat tail at 3100 FPS.

Many mule deer to its credit.

Decent size'd bull moose (4 hanging quarters weighed 400 pounds at the butcher)

Distance: 60 yds

Tho't process: Shoulder shot is out as this bullet is going to blow up. Better go for a heart shot.

Bang, see bullet entrance , dust, spot on. See dirt fly on the hill on the other side. (Complete penetration)

Said moose just stands there acting as if it just experienced a clear miss.

Shooter is so amazed that mind goes blank and never thinks about more shots. Actual thoughts, tend towards roping the **** thing and tying it to an aspen.

Said moose then leisurely strolls up the hill. Still amazed dumb hunter doesn't shoot.

Moose presents rear shot. Duh! That ain't gonna work.

Moose sways, falters and rolls back to where it was initially hit.

Dumb hunter has loop built and reins in pocket. Ready to rope and wrap around a quakie. Being confident that Mary Jane Elizabeth, the horse, would do her part.

Moose gets up, dumb hunter thinks, to use the horse and rope we're gonna have to take the front wheels away from the beast. 130 gr sierra or not!

Hunter goes for the shoulder joint, bang!. See bullet hit. See dust on hill on other side. Again complete penetration. This time through both shoulder blades, right next to the joint. Moose is DRT.......again!

Go figure....... a 2-bit sierra 130 boat tail, at that velocity, would have provided that level of performance at that close distance????

 

[Pdvdh]

Maybe it was a Midget Moose?

Like the opposite of Mighty Mouse...

 

[Ackley Man]

well, here's one for ya.

Young and up and coming LRHr.

The all around gun for all 48 state animals per O'Connor

130 Sierra boat tail at 3100 FPS.

Many mule deer to its credit.

Decent size'd bull moose (4 hanging quarters weighed 400 pounds at the butcher)

Distance: 60 yds

Tho't process: Shoulder shot is out as this bullet is going to blow up. Better go for a heart shot.

Bang, see bullet entrance , dust, spot on. See dirt fly on the hill on the other side. (Complete penetration)

Said moose just stands there acting as if it just experienced a clear miss.

Shooter is so amazed that mind goes blank and never thinks about more shots. Actual thoughts, tend towards roping the **** thing and tying it to an aspen.

Said moose then leisurely strolls up the hill. Still amazed dumb hunter doesn't shoot.

Moose presents rear shot. Duh! That ain't gonna work.

Moose sways, falters and rolls back to where it was initially hit.

Dumb hunter has loop built and reins in pocket. Ready to rope and wrap around a quakie. Being confident that Mary Jane Elizabeth, the horse, would do her part.

Moose gets up, dumb hunter thinks, to use the horse and rope we're gonna have to take the front wheels away from the beast. 130 gr sierra or not!

Hunter goes for the shoulder joint, bang!. See bullet hit. See dust on hill on other side. Again complete penetration. This time through both shoulder blades, right next to the joint. Moose is DRT.......again!

Go figure....... a 2-bit sierra 130 boat tail, at that velocity, would have provided that level of performance at that close distance????

Dosen't sound like much of a surprise. Didn't the bullet do what you would have expected at 60 yards, 3100 fps and obviously a high retained level of energy?

 

[dewiseman]

The concept of carrying both a short range and long range bullet sounds good. At what range would you make the switch to the Berger bullet, 300yds, 400, 500?

 

[Pdvdh]

400 to 500 yds. But I would say it depends on how well the short range bullets shoot out of your rifle. If you obtain satisfactory accuracy out to 4-500 yds then run with the short range bullet out to those distances. Past 400 yds I start to run with whichever bullet I have the most confidence with hitting the lethal zone. And past 500 yds I pretty much always shoot the VLD.

Shot a bear this spring at 425yds with a Berger VLD. Shot a sheep last fall at 325yds with the Nosler Accubond. Just two recent examples of my implementation.

Thinking of switching to the Nosler eTip for my shorter range bullet in 300 Win Mag. No lead to pick out of the meat and it's a certain deep-penetration performing bullet. An 'ugly bear' stopping bullet.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

The concept of carrying both a short range and long range bullet sounds good. At what range would you make the switch to the Berger bullet, 300yds, 400, 500?

Not sure if this is the thread to be discussing that, but I would do the transiton at a range where the velocity of the bullet would be low enoguh for the bullet to stay mostly intact.

-MR

 

[Pdvdh]

MR,
That could be tough with the Berger VLDs. They come unglued in the first 8-12 inches of penetration even at extended ranges. Just somewhat less than at 3000 fps impact velocities. At some yardage/point the higher BC VLD with the additional down range retained velocity, and reduced wind drift, adds value sufficient to make the switch. Even though the VLD could lose more than 50% of its original weight.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Shooting the 200 AB and the 210 Berger with respective MV's of 3200 and 3150, The Berger only gets about another 50 yds down range with 1800 fps of velocity and a differnce of 3 1/2" of drift in a 10 mph cross wind which I wouldn't be shooting at game with at that distance (1K) anyway. The ony practicle reason to carry it as a second ELR load would be if it were significantl more accurate (if the 200 AB were not accurate enough to hit the kill zone @ 1K)

The Bergers are great bullets... wish they would come up with a controlled expansion version.

-MR

 

[guns_and_labs]

I've read quite a bit of support for the Bergers at longer distances, on deer and other thin-skinned game. OK, I'm willing to try it, probably in my .264 WinMag.

But I haven't heard yet whether Berger and the Berger fans are suggesting it for an elk hunt, where the shot could be 50 yards, or it could be 500 yards. It's a guided hunt, and the guide just flat out won't allow shots further than that.

So, .300 WinMag, elk, 50-500 yards... Berger VLD or Nosler Accubond? ... both shoot well under 1 MOA at those distances...

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I've read quite a bit of support for the Bergers at longer distances, on deer and other thin-skinned game. OK, I'm willing to try it, probably in my .264 WinMag.

But I haven't heard yet whether Berger and the Berger fans are suggesting it for an elk hunt, where the shot could be 50 yards, or it could be 500 yards. It's a guided hunt, and the guide just flat out won't allow shots further than that.

So, .300 WinMag, elk, 50-500 yards... Berger VLD or Nosler Accubond? ... both shoot well under 1 MOA at those distances...

Do you want a grenade or do you want a controled expansion pass through?

-MR

 

[Pdvdh]

Shooting the 200 AB and the 210 Berger with respective MV's of 3200 and 3150, The Berger only gets about another 50 yds down range with 1800 fps of velocity and a differnce of 3 1/2" of drift in a 10 mph cross wind which I wouldn't be shooting at game with at that distance (1K) anyway. The ony practicle reason to carry it as a second ELR load would be if it were significantl more accurate (if the 200 AB were not accurate enough to hit the kill zone @ 1K)

The Bergers are great bullets... wish they would come up with a controlled expansion version.

-MR

I don't spend a lot of effort perfecting a load with my short range bullet. Utmost accuracy, ES, and SD aren't so critical out to 400 yds. All I require of my short range bullet is positive expansion, high weight retention at high velocity impacts, and less than 1.25 moa accuracy. I can live with that on large game out to 400 yards.

On the other hand, I do spend a lot of time working up the most accurate, low ES low SD load I can achieve for my long range bullet. Then I spend the time proving my field drops match my ballistic software program predictions. Since this process consumes a fair amount of time, I start out with what I consider to be one of the very best long range bullets available (compatible with my barrel's twist rate) and then see if I can get it to shoot with the accuracy required to engage game at 1000 yds. If my first pick for an optimum long range bullet doesn't shoot well out of my rifle, I'll try my 'second' selection long range bullet and repeat the effort. Once the bullet and load have proven themselves, it's a natural selection to run with that bullet as the distances are stretched. I have more confidence in that bullet because of the time and experience spent with that bullet during load development and long range testing & field drop confirmation.

The 210 VLDs shoot 50 fps faster at the muzzle than the 200 ABs in my 300 Win Mag. They're more accurate based on my load development to date. And they excell ballistically in every way. If those enhanced features and performance allow for an easier hit at long range, then I want that advantage even if the bullet doesn't retain the majority of its weight in a controlled mushroom. Putting the bullet on target is the higher priority at long range.

An extra 50 yds of maintained expansion velocity and 3 1/2" less wind drift aren't the only differences I experience because the VLDs are launched faster out of my barrel.

These are the practical reasons I switch from the short range bullet to my long range bullet when the ranges become interesting. My long range bullet is, quite simply, the best bullet in my possession for striking a death blow at extended ranges.