Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

[BryanLitz]

At close range and high impact velocities, fragmenting bullets are susceptible to failure.

phorwath,
I'm curious about what you mean by your statement above, in particular, what you mean by 'failure'. Are you saying that in such close range, high velocity impacts the bullets 'fail' by expanding too rapidly, or that they fail to expand?

Noel asks an interesting question, one that I think many people would answer differently. Most shooters agree on what merits of external ballistics are desirable (minimize drop and wind deflection, maximize energy, etc). However, I'm learning that there is a lot of disagreement about what terminal effects are 'desirable'. The spectrum goes from shooters who want 100% weight retention, no bullet deformation and max penetration, to the other extreme being rapid expansion and fragmentation.
Of course, as phorwath points out, the 'ideal' terminal bullet performance probably depends on the kind of animal, how it's oriented, and where you hit it.
Even in the high end academic papers I've turned up about bullet lethality, there is much disagreement among the scientists about what attributes of terminal bullet performance are most lethal. Every model that tries to 'rank' bullet lethality according to some parameters (energy, momentum, velocity, etc) is contested by some 'expert'. Turns out death is not easy to calculate.

So I'm interested in responses to Noels question as well. What do you, hunters, consider to be 'ideal' terminal bullet performance? How much does it depend on the details of the shot?

-Bryan

 

[eddybo]

Noel,

Since I shoot animals in the chest cavity I do not lose any meat due to the explosive strikes from the little Berger missiles.....and it seems that the shank of the bullet stays together well enough to give an exit. So yes I like the explosive hits, but do not think it is necessary.
The Berger is the best compromise out there for those shooter who want the bullet to dump all its energy in the animal and for those that want an exit wound for blood trailing. I have no idea as to the weight retention of the Bergers as I have never recovered one. At least the jacket seems to always exit the other side even on animals quartering to me.
My experiance is limited to whitetails and pigs.

 

[jmason]

My choices are dictated by where I'll be hunting to some extent. I prefer bullets that are explosive to semi explosive in most cases because I don't want any chance of it deflecting(on a miss) or continuing through the target and having any chance of collateral damage. I don't live and hunt where one's bullet can bounce off of anything and travel for miles without seeing civilization. No one is ever going to make the end all perfect bullet for every situation. It wouldn't be a good thing if all the manufacturers trended toward one type of bullet. We as hunters would lose our options. I also don't care to some extent what the BC is either. If I can predict my drop and drift why do I care if I need to dial in a few more clicks? Now don't get me wrong I'm a huge Berger fan and that's because they give me the best of a several worlds.

that's the point of view from this seat.

 

[noel carlson]

Thanks for the responses guys... especially Paul. You cut right to the chase on the issue of controlled-expansion biased projectiles. Cost is the rub, and I do not have a price finalized on these little buggers, but they will easily exceed that of a Berger.

Ironically, "explosive" impact results are much less costly to obtain in a compound-copper solid. Can I safely infer that the "flexibility" you folks want to preserve in ELR hunting includes a fragmentation round?

Best,
Noel

 

[jmason]

Can I safely infer that the "flexibility" you folks want to preserve in ELR hunting includes a fragmentation round?

Best,
Noel

You can for me.

 

[deerkiller]

Noel,
What I would like in a bullet can be described easily.
Flight & accuracy of a Berger.
Terminal performance of a Nosler Partition.

dk

 

[noel carlson]

DK,

As I understand the terminal performance characteristics of the Nosler Partition, the ZA projectile already developed is, at least, equal in the effective controlled-expansion velocity envelope.

With a qualifier that the improvements come at a cost, the accuracy and useful long range ZA potential exceeds all jacketed lead-core projectiles (without qualification).

jmason,

Is it very important to you that a frangible hunting projectile duplicates the trajectory of a target equivalent?

- Noel

 

[jmason]

jmason,

Is it very important to you that a frangible hunting projectile duplicates the trajectory of a target equivalent?

- Noel

No, but I'm sure that I am among the few on this. If I can predict my drop and drift I don't care how the bullet I select compares to a target equivalent. There are many reasons people select certain bullets. BC is not always a factor in the selection.

 

[Pdvdh]

phorwath,
I'm curious about what you mean by your statement above, in particular, what you mean by 'failure'. Are you saying that in such close range, high velocity impacts the bullets 'fail' by expanding too rapidly, or that they fail to expand?

So I'm interested in responses to Noels question as well. What do you, hunters, consider to be 'ideal' terminal bullet performance? How much does it depend on the details of the shot?
-Bryan

Bryan,
By failure, I meant at high velocity, a bullet that expands to the point of coming completely unglued could fail to penetrate deeply enough to reach and destroy the vitals of a large-sized animal, particularly if the shot isn't a broadside hit through the ribs into the boiler room. The problem isn't a failure to expand but completely coming apart such that the tiny individual pieces of fragmented bullet don't ever reach in deeply enough to destoy vital organs.

One short example:
When I first received a new rifle two years ago, the first load I prepared was Berger 210 VLDs for my 300 Win Mag. With that load range tested, I was out bear hunting that spring expecting shots at 350 to 850 yds. While driving down the road, a moose ran out in front of me and forced my to slam on my brakes. My rifle rolled off the rear car seat onto the carpeted floor-board. That light jar knocked the scope off enough so that my first hit on a bear was to its jaw at 425 yds. I ended up tracking the bear into the alders and caught up to him about 125 yds from the location of the first hit, still alive. He was lying on his side, head up and looking at me from about 20 feet away. I shot him on his underside in the brisket between the two front legs. The bear died instantly. This bear weighed about 170 lbs, and none of the bullet exited out the back (top side) of the bear. None of the bullet ever even reached the spine/backstraps. I found no fragments of the bullet any deeper than approximately 10" from the point of entry during the field dressing and butchering process. For an animal of that size, my shot placement into the underside of the animal resulted in an instant kill. But 9-10" of penetration won't get into the heart lung cavity on a moose or big bear with a frontal chest shot.

Hope that clarifies my statement and meaning.

 

[sandytye]

Excellent article Eric!!
Thanks for Clarifying the information. It is interesting to see how some companies promotional teams seem to think that the public will take there word/ "results" as gospel.
I guess they hope to increase there sales to the gulable who will not take the time to reason trough the so called information that they digest.

I agree with grit. If barnes wants to break into the long range market they need to change there bullets to get a higher BC. instead of trying to convince us that that their bullets have long range performance.

To me the perfect bullet would be one that has good terminal performance(the exact method doesn't matter) and has a superior BC. I say this because i have shot game with bullets that run full gamit of terminal performance methods. It all comes down to shot placement!!!
The better BC allows me more Wiggle room in reading/ adjusting for the wind. It has been my experiance that when i miss a long range shot it is due to missing the wind call.

If i can can shoot a bullet that has a High BC is able to withstand high launch velocity and has good terminal performance, It would be the bullet for me.

 

[Pdvdh]

Ironically, "explosive" impact results are much less costly to obtain in a compound-copper solid. Can I safely infer that the "flexibility" you folks want to preserve in ELR hunting includes a fragmentation round?

Best,
Noel

The Berger VLDs have proven very effective at reduced velocity, long-range hit distances, so I believe that based on the Berger track record, the fragmenting-style bullets can kill very well at long range.

It's often possible to wait for the ideal animal profile and presentation at long range (completely broadside standing still shot), where the depth of penetration required to reach the vitals through the ribcage, or even the shoulder shot for those that like the animal to drop in its tracks, isn't so demanding.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

Good read.

I dont use either barnes or berger anymore based on my experiences with them.

Never lost an animal with either bullet, but I was surprised at how each bullet acted under different circumstances.

The Barnes are over priced, picky, inconsistent accuracy wise (old XLC's im talking about) havent even tried the triple shock and probly never will, and they dont have a high BC which for me is a no brainer as to why I dont use them anymore. Plus, the couple deer I shot and witnessed being shot with the 165g xlc from a 300 win mag at 100-200 yards, the petals peeled off leaving a caliber size exit hole like a FMJ. On the other end of things, a shoulder shot buck I wacked at 100 yards with the 100g xlc from my 25-06 ripped him open, leaving about 6-8" hole.

The Bergers are very accurate, not very picky, and have a high BC. However I've had mixed results with the 168g vld from a 7 mag blowing up at 600 yards on the shoulder of a deer. The next year I use the 180g vld from the 7 mag once again, this time the buck was only 100 yards broadside and it left pinsize exit holes. So I got one extreme to the next. To much expansion even at 600 yards with 1 bullet, then not getting any expansion what so ever at 100 yards with a bullet that weighed 12g more and was impacting a helluva lot more FPS.

I choose to stick with Nosler NBT's or AB's anymore. I"ve had nothing but great experiences with these bullets at all sorts of ranges and the results were always the same. Animal was usually DRT with an exit. Cant ask for much better performance IMO. They are cheap, accurate, have a fairly high BC, and the best thing is there performance has always been repeatable, FOR ME.

 

[joep17]

Wow.

I read both articles carefully. Learned something from both. However, there was one big difference. To my perception, the Barnes article came across as information with some opinion and artisctic license BUT completely professional and left the reader to decide for themselves. I did not get the sense of personal or corporate attack like I did the second article. The tone definitely dropped my high opinion of the Berger name down a couple of notches. Great product, just a step backwards in company image.

And here I thought shooting, reloading and ballistics were pure science where emotions and passions got checked at the door.

 

[wild weasel]

From all i've read i would love to use some 210 gr VLD bullets in my 300 RUM. but i understand they need to be seated very close to the lands. as you know the RUM has lots of freebore and i am hesitant to buy a box and not have the accuracy by seating to factory length, i have read the article that lots of guys don't seat them close to the lands. if i could just get about 10 or 12 bullets to try then i would better know if i would use them. i'm going to try them in my Ruger No 1 7mmSTW. watching the videos this bullet is awesome.