Barbour Creek student take antelope @ 1507 yards

[ohlongarmisle]

Right under the snout 105 yards with a eley sub

This is a coyotes snout,so you hit him in the teeth right? Or in the mouth, or bridge above the incisors. I hit mine about 4 inches below the snout in the mouth.

 

[ohlongarmisle]

You know it's OK to have someone out shoot you, you don't need to get bent out of shape cause your not as elite as you think, maybe if someone out shoots you it's an opportunity to learn and increase your skills and not stagnate!!

As elite as you are you can easily confirm the distance by time of flight. Would have been a little over 2 seconds at 1507!!

How was I outshot ? I killed three prongs in five years I wasn't shooting against anyone, had I been shooting against someone with the identical equipment the 4500 foot shot was taken Id probably made it. We learn the same techniques Barbour uses.Metro Swat for countywide callouts is as good as it gets in metropolitan police agencies, apparently you wouldn't know you drank to much poisoned Kool aid.

 

[LRNut]

I have often said that at some point simple physics obviates the best shooting in the world. This guy used a 6.5 Creed shooting 147 ELDM factory loads? So let's say his rifle shoots 1/2 MOA. That means at 1507 his bullet dispersion is 7.5" to start. The wind was blowing 6 mph? What if it was 5 or 7? An error of only one mph results in a +/- 1.3 MOA, which means even if he fired one hole groups at 1507, an error in wind estimation of .25 mph blows EVERY bullet out of the 10" vital area. By the way, the total wind drift would be 9 MOA, or over 11 feet!

I made a video some months ago holding my Kestrel in the wind. I recorded almost a minute of data, then played it back frame by frame and entered the wind speeds in an Excel file. I don't have that file handy, but IIRC the average wind speed was about 6 mph. There were very few frames where the wind stayed the same. At 1507 your TOF is 2.8 seconds - you are telling me this guy made a perfect wind call and it didn't change at all for nearly 3 seconds?

I won't inject ethics; I am simply pointing out some easy mathematical facts. This guy got lucky; there is no other way to spin it.

 

[ohlongarmisle]

I have often said that at some point simple physics obviates the best shooting in the world. This guy used a 6.5 Creed shooting 147 ELDM factory loads? So let's say his rifle shoots 1/2 MOA. That means at 1507 his bullet dispersion is 7.5" to start. The wind was blowing 6 mph? What if it was 5 or 7? An error of only one mph results in a +/- 1.3 MOA, which means even if he fired one hole groups at 1507, an error in wind estimation of .25 mph blows EVERY bullet out of the 10" vital area. By the way, the total wind drift would be 9 MOA, or over 11 feet!

I made a video some months ago holding my Kestrel in the wind. I recorded almost a minute of data, then played it back frame by frame and entered the wind speeds in an Excel file. I don't have that file handy, but IIRC the average wind speed was about 6 mph. There were very few frames where the wind stayed the same. At 1507 your TOF is 2.8 seconds - you are telling me this guy made a perfect wind call and it didn't change at all for nearly 3 seconds?

I won't inject ethics; I am simply pointing out some easy mathematical facts. This guy got lucky; there is no other way to spin it.

I agree ,lucky at 1/3 the reported distance, the only explanation that makes sense. AND having killed 3 prongs in 5 years,on the plains, and been with the amish guy in the picture who has killed double that , I've never seen the wind at 6mph not even one time. Totality of circumstances. Best explanation yet by you, even out of my league.

 

[bigngreen]

I agree ,lucky at 1/3 the reported distance, the only explanation that makes sense. AND having killed 3 prongs in 5 years,on the plains, and been with the amish guy in the picture who has killed double that , I've never seen the wind at 6mph not even one time. Totality of circumstances. Best explanation yet by you, even out of my league.

Did you check the time of flight?

 

[Mrvmax]

Not sure why people care so much. He went hunting, killed the animal at a long distance. Luck, skill or whatever, it really doesn't matter - he got what he was hunting. This forum is about long range hunting so I am not sure why so many people have their panties in a wad over this.

Maybe some people here need to go over to short range hunting .com and argue over the ethics of shooting past 100 yards.

 

[Rick Richard]

Not sure why people care so much. He went hunting, killed the animal at a long distance. Luck, skill or whatever, it really doesn't matter - he got what he was hunting. This forum is about long range hunting so I am not sure why so many people have their panties in a wad over this.

Maybe some people here need to go over to short range hunting .com and argue over the ethics of shooting past 100 yards.

Why?
Jealousy, arrogance, ego, little man syndrome, eternal pessimist, envy, WOKE………

 

[JAYgs8163]

 

[LRNut]

Why?
Jealousy, arrogance, ego, little man syndrome, eternal pessimist, envy, WOKE………

No, it isn't - it is pretty simple math - at some point, your rifle's accuracy, your ability to estimate wind, the changes in wind during the TOF, the chance the animal might move during the TOF, etc., all add up to a miserable probability of hitting. Funny how no one takes me up on the numbers in my above post - they are hard to argue with.

The person I respect the most on this site is @DocUSMCRetired - he has spent a huge amount of time using laser technology to measure wind speeds and increasing the lethality of snipers. I would love to get his take on this thread. If reading mirage was the perfect solution there wouldn't be all kinds of money and time spent on measuring it with either LIDAR, scintillation, or God knows what else.

I got to play with the Trijicon Ventus for a day about six months after they announced it. It was amazing, but I suspect a major reason they didn't bring it out is that by the time it measured wind (about 2 seconds) it had changed.

 

[bigngreen]

No, it isn't - it is pretty simple math -

Yes it is, you might double check yours!
I agree it was not an everyday or even year shot but it's not just just lobbing one out there either.

 

[ohlongarmisle]

Right under the snout 105 yards with a eley sub

Where was he hit under the snout and was drt?a very valid question that needs answering,something smells here,BS maybe I surely hope not.

 

[Barbourcreek]

I told him to change calibers to 7prc or 28 nos if wants to shoot that far

EB app gives you the information
You are looking for

He is well trained in my wind technique but it was definitely a little far for a CRM

I also played with the ventus. Chuck and Josh came here to compare my wind reading to it and learn. They were surprised on what they learned

Anyway the thread is getting old Len you are welcome to turn off comments

So we can move on from the folks who have issues with it. He's a grown man and can do what he wants. I would have kept it in the 1000-1100 yards but I'm me and not him
Great shot and wind call

My students train to just over 1600 yards on life size animal targets shooting across valleys with a 6.5 creedmoor

And do great but I do tell them train far so closer shots are easier.

Thats all. Have a great day!

 

[LRNut]

Yes it is, you might double check yours!
I agree it was not an everyday or even year shot but it's not just just lobbing one out there either.

Check my math? Shoot holes in it - explain how you can measure wind perfectly (because that is what it takes to hit at that distance) AND be sure it doesn't change in the nearly 3 second TOF. Every one mph of wind blows the OPs bullet nearly 20" - that is twice as large as the vital area of an antelope. Again, if you shoot 7.5 inch groups at that distance (1/2 MOA), you will have a 100% chance of a miss if you miss the wind by .44 mph. In my experience, the wind almost never stays within .44 mph over a 3 second period when its average speed is 6 mph.

I shoot every day at LR; shot today at 784 and 1183 so I am speaking from experience, not a keyboard. I didn't even mention the fact that you need extremely low SDs or you will see vertical error as well. The factory load mentioned has a MV of 2695. What if it was only 2690? You hit 5 inches low, but you still have a 50% chance of hitting because half your bullets are going to hit above your center of aim. However, once your MV deviates by only 10 fps, you have a 100% chance of missing due to vertical error.

Maybe James can tell us how well his students do at wind estimation. Like I said, if you could measure wind perfectly using nothing but mirage guys like @DocUSMCRetired would not be spending his time trying to come up with a better solution.

 

[RichCoyle]

Again, just because you can't do it doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Also, Barbour Creek isn't "allowing students to take shots like this". They are teaching students how to effectively shoot at long range.

I can't play water polo because if I tried, I would probably drown. I don't run around telling people who do that they shouldn't because they will probably drown.

Put in the time, learn your equipment, learn about the game you are chasing and you will be pretty amazed at what you can accomplish.

I remember the first hunting season after I learned to hit running targets. A deer in a clear cut got up about 110 yards and headed out at about a 45* angle. There is just no way to express my, for lack of a better word, cockiness. I slowly put down the binoculars, thinking there is no hurry. Then I picked up the rifle.

It was one of the funnest shots I made. The bullet entered behind the diaphragm and exited in the off side shoulder.