AZ Coues deer-6.5 Creedmore and Hammers

[CONatureBoy]

As I promised... a report on my Coues deer hunt in AZ, with the 6.5 Creed, and the 85 grain Hammers. I harvested a beautiful 110" buck at 430 yards! My gun is a Wby Vanguard RC, stock box factory. Range Certified (RC), with a Leupold Vx6, 4-12 power, with the CDS dial, for the 85 grain Hammer at a blistering 3455 fps ave. My load for the Hammers shoots under .600" at 200 yards routinely. Having said that...

First shot at 458 yards, CDS set at 460, was 3" over the back, guide witness vapor trail. Second shot at 434 after CDS adjustment hit him just under the spine, buck never flinched, but started walking down hill. Third shot now at 429 after two clicks down, and hit him about 4" left of heart and 3" inches low. Buck jumped and kicked hind legs like a heart shot. All three perfect for windage.

After a half hour (never saw him lay down) we crossed the canyon and started trailing from second shot (no blood or hair), and second hit showed 3-4 blood spots, with one being about 3" diameter dark red blood.

We then painstakingly slow TRAILED THIS BUCK, with almost no blood at all, for 4 1/2 HOURS. He walked slowly the whole time, which gave me some hope, but crushed me when he started back up hill across the canyon, and we lost his trail. Decision time, looked like he when up the right side once, so instinct told me to go up the left and it proved correct. After climbing about 150 yards, I saw him walking slowly through brush and cactus, and when he stopped I dropped him at 137 yards with the finisher!

Observations: meat under spine was destroyed, with a few pedals found, small hole in, small hole out. Broad side shot, small hole in, small hole out. I would have thought either one would have been deadly in 50 yards. All blood stayed internal and in 6-7 feet of brush and cactus, all I can say is luck and Divine Intervention saved me from the loss of a B&C buck. Had we not trailed him so slow (and had to) he could have laid down, and we never would have found him. My guide remarked with jubilation, " I tell everybody all the time these bigger Coues bucks can be hard to kill"... I agree.View attachment 308345

I applaud your diligence tracking down the wounded animal. I hope it will inspire other hunters to do likewise. It's heartbreaking to lose a game animal.

I agree with other comments about your being undergunned for that distance. The rule of thumb I've read is, you need 1,000 ft-lbs of retained energy for a deer. I input your bullet's G7 BC and your reported muzzle velocity into the Berger external-ballistics calculator, which gave me this range card (for standard conditions):

You might have had 850 ft-lbs or so of retained energy for your first shot. Monolithic bullets are not known for their ability to expand at long ranges (low retained-energy levels). For such a load I'd keep deer shots within 350 yards.

I started my hunting career using a 243 shooting similarly light bullets. I quickly graduated to a 270 Win. and then a 7mm Rem. Mag. so I could be more comfortable shooting to 400, then 500, yards. You might consider a heavier bullet or a larger caliber if you want to shoot deer outside of 300 yards. And you might consider a more explosive bullet like a Berger, Nosler Ballistic Tip, or Hornady ELD-X. If the animal drops in its tracks, you don't need a blood trail to track it.

I say all of that in light of my own experience making a perfect broadside shot on a nice bull elk at 460 yards (ranged) with a 220-grain Sierra Match King. I had read online that long-distance hunters were using the SMK 220 for elk hunting, and that the military used it in sniper ammunition. But (just like your broadside shot) my bullet went between the ribs, in and out; it never expanded. (I've since learned that military gel-block tests on the bullet resulted in their classifying the bullet as a "full metal jacket" bullet, because it expands more like an FMJ than a hollow point.) I tracked the elk from 4:00 p.m. to 10:30 p.m. in two-foot-deep snow, into a blizzard. The elk kept falling down and leaving impressions in the snow with a telltale pinprick of lung-colored blood, but I never caught up to it. I had to abandon the search when my GPS receiver quit working because of the blizzard, miles from my truck. That winter I did more research and converted to Berger bullets. I've lost meat to a Berger's explosiveness, but I've never had to track an animal shot with a Berger. They've always just dropped where I shot 'em.

Example: a few weeks ago I shot this bull elk with a Berger 210-grain VLDH at 445 yards, high shoulder shot (right side). It dropped without taking a single step. 300 RUM, 3,000 fps muzzle velocity, retained energy about 3,000 ft-lbs (double the minimum 1,500 ft-lbs of retained energy). No exit wound:

I lost several pounds of meat (backstrap and high shoulder) to the fragmentation.

Now I hunt everything with long-for-caliber Bergers, adjusting caliber and bullet mass so it's appropriate for quarry (156-grain 6.5s for predators and smaller deer, 180-grain 7mms for heavy deer and cow elk, and 210-230 grain 300s for bull elk etc.).

High muzzle velocity is sexy, but I've learned the hard way that adequate retained energy and adequate energy transfer are what bring an animal down.

 

[Hard rock]

I applaud your diligence tracking down the wounded animal. I hope it will inspire other hunters to do likewise. It's heartbreaking to lose a game animal.

I agree with other comments about your being undergunned for that distance. The rule of thumb I've read is, you need 1,000 ft-lbs of retained energy for a deer. I input your bullet's G7 BC and your reported muzzle velocity into the Berger external-ballistics calculator, which gave me this range card (for standard conditions):

View attachment 308673

You might have had 850 ft-lbs or so of retained energy for your first shot. Monolithic bullets are not known for their ability to expand at long ranges (low retained-energy levels). For such a load I'd keep deer shots within 350 yards.

I started my hunting career using a 243 shooting similarly light bullets. I quickly graduated to a 270 Win. and then a 7mm Rem. Mag. so I could be more comfortable shooting to 400, then 500, yards. You might consider a heavier bullet or a larger caliber if you want to shoot deer outside of 300 yards. And you might consider a more explosive bullet like a Berger, Nosler Ballistic Tip, or Hornady ELD-X. If the animal drops in its tracks, you don't need a blood trail to track it.

I say all of that in light of my own experience making a perfect broadside shot on a nice bull elk at 460 yards (ranged) with a 220-grain Sierra Match King. I had read online that long-distance hunters were using the SMK 220 for elk hunting, and that the military used it in sniper ammunition. But (just like your broadside shot) my bullet went between the ribs, in and out; it never expanded. (I've since learned that military gel-block tests on the bullet resulted in their classifying the bullet as a "full metal jacket" bullet, because it expands more like an FMJ than a hollow point.) I tracked the elk from 4:00 p.m. to 10:30 p.m. in two-foot-deep snow, into a blizzard. The elk kept falling down and leaving impressions in the snow with a telltale pinprick of lung-colored blood, but I never caught up to it. I had to abandon the search when my GPS receiver quit working because of the blizzard, miles from my truck. That winter I did more research and converted to Berger bullets. I've lost meat to a Berger's explosiveness, but I've never had to track an animal shot with a Berger. They've always just dropped where I shot 'em.

Example: a few weeks ago I shot this bull elk with a Berger 210-grain VLDH at 445 yards, high shoulder shot (right side). It dropped without taking a single step. 300 RUM, 3,000 fps muzzle velocity, retained energy about 3,000 ft-lbs (double the minimum ethical 1,500 ft-lbs of retained energy). No exit wound:

View attachment 308680

I lost several pounds of meat (backstrap and high shoulder) to the fragmentation.

Now I hunt everything with long-for-caliber Bergers, adjusting caliber and bullet mass so it's appropriate for quarry (156-grain 6.5s for predators and smaller deer, 180-grain 7mms for heavy deer and cow elk, and 210-230 grain 300s for bull elk etc.).

High muzzle velocity is sexy, but I've learned the hard way that adequate retained energy and adequate energy transfer are what bring an animal down.

I bet that buck dropped like lightening at 137 yds with that little 85 gr Hammer

 

[ButterBean]

I ran it and it came up 1300fps@ 400

With an 85g pill@ 1300fps ..............................Yep

Calling someone's well-intentioned actions 'unethical' has no place on this forum. Go back and refresh yourself on the rules.

As an aside, before wild horses and burros were under federal protection, AZ Game & Fish would cull them on a semi-regular basis. These are 300 to 800 lb. animals - probably tougher than the typical coues deer buck at 120 lbs. What was their preferred rifle of choice for culling? A 22-250 with an 80 grain bullet.

I thank the OP for sharing his story and experiences - both the good and the bad. And what a great buck!

He was loaded for about a 300 yd shot

My numbers were wrong , I fat fingered the app he would have been around 2000fps depending on altitude so he would have been good to go with the 85 at that range, All apologies Once again the 85 is Good To Go at 475

 

[Huntnful]

My fault for saying that combo was borderline unethical. I said it earlier in a post after reading everything. I'll go edit it. Shooting a tiny bullet (or any bullet) near the bottom of its expansion limit with equipment that isn't even proven at that distance shouldn't be done. I am certain it wasn't an intentional situation. Simply just lack of knowledge under those given circumstances. Live and learn. LEARN being the most important part in that statement.

 

[xsn10s]

My fault for saying that combo was borderline unethical. I said it earlier in a post after reading everything. I'll go edit it. Shooting a tiny bullet (or any bullet) near the bottom of its expansion limit with equipment that isn't even proven at that distance shouldn't be done. I am certain it wasn't an intentional situation. Simply just lack of knowledge under those given circumstances. Live and learn. LEARN being the most important part in that statement.

I didn't perceive you saying it was un(the e word). But if that was the case then I guess the rules apply. According to JBM the energy seems low. I'd prefer a heavier bullet. Just my opinion.

 

[Panhandle Pete]

As I promised... a report on my Coues deer hunt in AZ, with the 6.5 Creed, and the 85 grain Hammers. I harvested a beautiful 110" buck at 430 yards! My gun is a Wby Vanguard RC, stock box factory. Range Certified (RC), with a Leupold Vx6, 4-12 power, with the CDS dial, for the 85 grain Hammer at a blistering 3455 fps ave. My load for the Hammers shoots under .600" at 200 yards routinely. Having said that...

First shot at 458 yards, CDS set at 460, was 3" over the back, guide witness vapor trail. Second shot at 434 after CDS adjustment hit him just under the spine, buck never flinched, but started walking down hill. Third shot now at 429 after two clicks down, and hit him about 4" left of heart and 3" inches low. Buck jumped and kicked hind legs like a heart shot. All three perfect for windage.

After a half hour (never saw him lay down) we crossed the canyon and started trailing from second shot (no blood or hair), and second hit showed 3-4 blood spots, with one being about 3" diameter dark red blood.

We then painstakingly slow TRAILED THIS BUCK, with almost no blood at all, for 4 1/2 HOURS. He walked slowly the whole time, which gave me some hope, but crushed me when he started back up hill across the canyon, and we lost his trail. Decision time, looked like he when up the right side once, so instinct told me to go up the left and it proved correct. After climbing about 150 yards, I saw him walking slowly through brush and cactus, and when he stopped I dropped him at 137 yards with the finisher!

Observations: meat under spine was destroyed, with a few pedals found, small hole in, small hole out. Broad side shot, small hole in, small hole out. I would have thought either one would have been deadly in 50 yards. All blood stayed internal and in 6-7 feet of brush and cactus, all I can say is luck and Divine Intervention saved me from the loss of a B&C buck. Had we not trailed him so slow (and had to) he could have laid down, and we never would have found him. My guide remarked with jubilation, " I tell everybody all the time these bigger Coues bucks can be hard to kill"... I agree.View attachment 308345

Congrats on such a fine old buck. I am a fan of the Nolser 129 grain Accubond LR in our 260 AI's with Schneider barrels 1x8 twist - DRT with shots out to 605 yard shots on antelope. Deer and hogs at closer ranges, it is extremely accurate and we have shot game from 35 yards to 605 yards. The only animal that required a second shot was with me making a miss on wind call at 550 yards and hit the neck with my first shot. Accubonds have preformed well in my 243 AI- 90 grain, 280 AI 160 grain, 340 Wtby mag 225 grain. My two pennies.

 

[Huntz]

I really do not know anything about Mono bullets as I have only taken one doe with a Barnes X Bullet.I have shot many Does in the UP on Crop destruction permits using a 243 with 85 grain Partitions out to 500 + or - yards.It was not un common to shoot 20 deer and up at a time in Menominee County when they were averaging 200 deer per square mile.Never lost one with a partition.They had to be shot clean as we had to field dress them and haul to processors to be butchered.Many people in need benefited from the summer shoots.So I guess what my point is that is 85 grains is not too light for a properly constructed bullet.A couple of other guys that a shot with were using 223`s with 55 grain Hornady SP`s.They did not shoot as far as I would but those 55 grain Hornadys put many deer down as well.Just sayin,Huntz

 

[Warbird2006]

I hate to be the first one to say it, but you showed up to the fight extremely undergunned and unprepared for a 460 yard shot. That CDS turret is garbage unless you've personal verified it at every single yardage. 2 MOA off (high) at 460 yards is unacceptably far. I love hammers, but an 85gr. bullet out of a 6.5 CM at 460 yards is hardly a lethal big game setup. None of this was a failure of anything besides the failure to understand what it truly takes to kill an animal at a long distance. I am definitely glad you got your buck and happy for you. Don't get me wrong about that. But this should seriously be looked at by you and anyone else that thinks these small cartridges and tiny bullets are good for long range killing. They simply are not. And relentless ballistic prep work before the hunt is mandatory if you think you're going to be shooting long distance.

You are exactly right. 6.5CM is great for paper targets, but if you want to kill an animal at longer distances, get something with a bigger punch.

 

[DoneNOut]

You are exactly right. 6.5CM is great for paper targets, but if you want to kill an animal at longer distances, get something with a bigger punch.

I agree to an extent here. However, in this case he just needed a heavier grain bullet like the 143 ELDX and confirm his CDS drops.

 

[Warbird2006]

The 6.5 creed is not undergunned at 460 yards on deer. It boiled down to poor bullet choice and poor bullet placement. That's the bottom line.

Hey, if you would hit the animal with 300 Weatherby, 300 WinMag , the animal would be dead after that spine hit.

 

[Warbird2006]

Precisely. This is why I use a 6.5-300 Weatherby

My favourite. 100 grains Sciroccos at 3700 fps never failed.

 

[DoneNOut]

Hey, if you would hit the animal with 300 Weatherby, 300 WinMag , the animal would be dead after that spine hit.

Well, I mean...that's what we would do!

 

[xsn10s]

460 yards isn't that far for a creed. Wayne Van Zwoll took a nice bull with the creed at 600 yards using 129 SST. Not something I would advocate. But I'm not going to argue with Wayne Van Zwoll either.

 

[nakneker]

I live in Arizona, born and raised here. We've hunted couses deer all my life. One thing anybody will tell you who has hunted them very long is they are tougher than people may think. They are small and because of their size they are often not given any consideration for being tough. Once one of those little grey ghosts gets his adrenaline going you better anchor them. Most of the deer we shoot are at long range, 500-1000 yards and we've made it a rule to stay on point even if they drop on the first shot. They have an uncanny ability to get back up and without blood they can go lay down a 100 yards away and be near impossible to find.

Congratulations on a nice couses deer. It took guts to come on here and tell a honest version of your hunt. The lessons learned are obvious and adjustments can be made for your next hunt. We all learn from our experiences in the field, if you've hunted for any length of time I'm sure there are have been choices you'd like to have back.

We use bigger cartridges for these glass and shoot hunts. 7 Saum is a personal favorite or 300 Norma mag improved, both shooting heavies. I also have a couple guide friends here that use the Creed and 143 ELDx with good success. I just like a bit more whack than that.