AZ Coues deer-6.5 Creedmore and Hammers

[Petey308]

Congrats on a great buck! I'm so happy you found him and recovered him.

I don't want to get into anything crazy here. I just wanted to add my own two cents is all based on my own experience. Starting off, 6.5mm (.264") bullets are in general very efficient and have a great BC typically, especially compared to other calibers. So even an 85gr solid like this hammer isn't terrible. Match that with your 3455fps MV, and it does better than one might think. I'm not sure what altitude you were at, so I just entered 2200' along with other typical environmental conditions. You were right around 2200fps or a bit below at impact according to my calculations. I know some will argue, but I set a personal minimum impact velocity for solid copper bullets right at 2200fps for best results, and even then a good amount of impact resistance is ideal to go along with it.

I'm not at all going to say anything about your shot other than I think we can all agree the first couple were not where desired or in an ideal location. Impact resistance in that location will be relatively low. So that's a major factor in why you got small holes in and small holes out. The damage internally was created simply by the rapid displacement of tissue and fluids as the bullet passed through.

A heavier version of that bullet might very well have increased the BC enough to retain more velocity and also experience less drift from wind. You just have to be careful you don't go too heavy and have similar issues with producing sufficient expansion. Obviously a better shot placement, preferably a shoulder shot in this particular scenario, would have been ideal. It is what it is though, and I'm not going to get into why or how the shots hit where they hit.

My conclusion overall is that the particular bullet used was just outside its limitations, unfortunately. A couple things could have helped the end result, but the bottom line is you came home with the deer and a good experience to examine and maybe learn from. Congrats again!

 

[Quintus]

Where do you draw the line for the 6.5 creedmoor and grab a bigger gun? I think 500 is about max with a 147 EDL-M. And I'm not talking about crunching numbers and ft-lbs and what not. Have you actually killed multiple animals beyond 400 yards and what did you think of the damage upon bullet impact, and after bullet impact? I killed 5 bucks (full grown muleys) from 40-450 yards with mine. Every single one took 2 shots, possibly not necessary, but they darn sure weren't deathly ill after the first shot. The two that were past 400 yards hardly even knew they were even hit, with either shot. Also shot a coyote at 425 yards quartering away, that still took 2 shots.

6.5 creed. 5 bucks - 10 Shots. 147 ELD-M

28 Nosler. 8 bucks (even bigger bucks) - 8 Shots. Berger 180VLD, Berger 195 EOL, and 169 Hammer Hunter.

I barely just started shooting hammers. Only killed 2 mule deer and an elk with them. So I'm not a hammer supporter. But I am a fan of true terminal ballistic data, and I have a decent amount of first hand data.

I feel like "Plenty" is an overstatement. Enough, yes.

There's also a video of a guy shooting a big mountain muley at 630 yards 3 times with a 6.5 creedmoor and it hardly moves, over about the course of 2 minutes, and then falls over.

I love this argument. I am wondering why after 3 bucks in 6 shots you didn't replace the E-LDM? We've killed alotta deer to 450 yards with the 260/6.5creed/6.5 Swede with a few different bullets and there isn't an instance they were not all dead in the 7 to 20 seconds it takes for the BP to run out, regardless of the reaction to the shot. Bullets used have been Gamekings, Sciroccos, Partitions, Accubonds, TSXs, and Bergers. That case IS plenty.

 

[Coues110]

Good job finding a Booner Coues! Stuff happens and everyone misses sometimes, uphill and downhill shots especially. Great tracking and putting it together to finish the buck. I enjoyed reading your post.

 

[Huntnful]

I love this argument. I am wondering why after 3 bucks in 6 shots you didn't replace the E-LDM? We've killed alotta deer to 450 yards with the 260/6.5creed/6.5 Swede with a few different bullets and there isn't an instance they were not all dead in the 7 to 20 seconds it takes for the BP to run out, regardless of the reaction to the shot. Bullets used have been Gamekings, Sciroccos, Partitions, Accubonds, TSXs, and Bergers. That case IS plenty.

It is a known killing bullet by many of people. I also didn't reload and it was the only gun and ammo I had to take on a month long, 4 state, hunting trip. There is no argument from me. I had a cartridge and a bullet and I tested the crap out of it for a month and I was highly unimpressed with its killing abilities lol. There are far superior cartridges for long range hunting. Not just hunting… Long Range Hunting. The name of this entire forum lol. But I do have 2 daughters and their first hunting rifle will probably be a 6.5 CM because of the low recoil, accuracy and SHORT RANGE killing abilities . I'm just poking fun now haha. But I'll seriously probably get another one for them and keep the shots short. Great starter rifle for small children for sure

 

[Hard rock]

It is a known killing bullet by many of people. I also didn't reload and it was the only gun and ammo I had to take on a month long, 4 state, hunting trip. There is no argument from me. I had a cartridge and a bullet and I tested the crap out of it for a month and I was highly unimpressed with its killing abilities lol. There are far superior cartridges for long range hunting. Not just hunting… Long Range Hunting. The name of this entire forum lol. But I do have 2 daughters and their first hunting rifle will probably be a 6.5 CM because of the low recoil, accuracy and SHORT RANGE killing abilities . I'm just poking fun now haha. But I'll seriously probably get another one for them and keep the shots short. Great starter rifle for small children for sure

If the truth would be told I bet 99 percent of the members on this forum hasn't killed anything past 350 yds might make for a good discussion for what is long range and what isn't and how many hunters on this forum have killed a game animal at that distance or further if you had too show proof too be a member there probably wouldn't be many members

 

[Jud96]

It's the power of the Creed bean

Looks like the 6.5 Creedmoor doesn't "need more" when it's neck and neck with a 270 AI haha

 

[Huntnful]

If the truth would be told I bet 99 percent of the members on this forum hasn't killed anything past 350 yds might make for a good discussion for what is long range and what isn't and how many hunters on this forum have killed a game animal at that distance or further if you had too show proof too be a member there probably wouldn't be many members

That's a decent point actually. I have videos of what a 28 Nosler does to a big mountain Muley at 630 yards and two muleys at 540 yards. The trauma is far more than a small 6.5 cartridge at 40 yards, which I also have first hand experience with lol. I had one, I liked it, I shot it, I killed with it, it's not a Long Range Cartridge IMO.

 

[xsn10s]

Cody did a good write up on the 6.5 147 ELDM out of his 260 AI. I think though it killed he wasn't overly impressed, which surprised him if I remember correctly. I believe he went back to the 140 Berger and might have tried using 156 EOL.

 

[Huntnful]

Cody did a good write up on the 6.5 147 ELDM out of his 260 AI. I think though it killed he wasn't overly impressed, which surprised him if I remember correctly. I believe he went back to the 140 Berger and might have tried using 156 EOL.

Sounds about like my experience.

Something I would entertain for sure is a 26 Nosler or 6.5 SAUM and a 156 Berger. But I can't quite bring myself to go smaller than what I have. I'd rather be over-gunned, than even slightly under-gunned. Big mule deer are tough suckers!!

 

[Idaho Lefty]

Cody did a good write up on the 6.5 147 ELDM out of his 260 AI. I think though it killed he wasn't overly impressed, which surprised him if I remember correctly. I believe he went back to the 140 Berger and might have tried using 156 EOL.

IF, the OP had been using either, a 147 ELD-M, a 135 Classic Hunter or, a 140 Elite Hunter, BERGER, this whole Post,.. WOULDN'T even,.. be here !
YUP,.. that Buck probably would BE,. DRT !

 

[vancewalker007]

If the truth would be told I bet 99 percent of the members on this forum hasn't killed anything past 350 yds might make for a good discussion for what is long range and what isn't and how many hunters on this forum have killed a game animal at that distance or further if you had too show proof too be a member there probably wouldn't be many members

Its an interesting point. I have always defined long range the point where you need to start making elevation adjustments to hit your target, which varies for every rifle setup. I came to that definition after speaking at length with Aaron Davidson (Gunwerks) several years ago at an SCI conference. I think much less have most people ever shot at an animal beyond 350 yards, likely never shot at a range off a bench that far. East of Texas there are very few ranges that go beyond 200 yards. We are very fortunate in the Phoenix area as we have a public range that has a 300 yard paper range and a 500 meter steel range and in Tucson there are 500 meter and 1000 yard ranges that can be accessed. Plus lots of great spots in the various national forests to shoot as far as your gear will allow. In fact, its almost getting cool enough to go out and shoot some long range steel here. I need to plan a trip.

 

[Hard rock]

IF, the OP had been using either, a 147 ELD-M, a 135 Classic Hunter or, a 140 Elite Hunter, BERGER, this whole Post,.. WOULDN'T even,.. be here !
YUP,.. that Buck probably would BE,. DRT !

Most likely at that range and impact velocity of a bullet of that weight out of a 6.5 Creedmore you would have a entrance wound no expansion a no exit or blood trail and a lost deer it's pretty evident no vitals were hit so not much blood loss inside if it wasn't for the OP being a experienced hunter and determined too find that deer the outcome would be the same either way when you know you made a good shot and the animal runs it's time too put your best effort into finding that animal that incident is no fault of the bullet you can speculate all day long what a cup and core would have done remember it boils done too impact velocity of choice of bullet for what a particular bullet is designed for plus placement my hats off too the O P for not giving up

 

[LVJ76]

I live in Arizona, born and raised here. We've hunted couses deer all my life. One thing anybody will tell you who has hunted them very long is they are tougher than people may think. They are small and because of their size they are often not given any consideration for being tough. Once one of those little grey ghosts gets his adrenaline going you better anchor them. Most of the deer we shoot are at long range, 500-1000 yards and we've made it a rule to stay on point even if they drop on the first shot. They have an uncanny ability to get back up and without blood they can go lay down a 100 yards away and be near impossible to find.

Congratulations on a nice couses deer. It took guts to come on here and tell a honest version of your hunt. The lessons learned are obvious and adjustments can be made for your next hunt. We all learn from our experiences in the field, if you've hunted for any length of time I'm sure there are have been choices you'd like to have back.

We use bigger cartridges for these glass and shoot hunts. 7 Saum is a personal favorite or 300 Norma mag improved, both shooting heavies. I also have a couple guide friends here that use the Creed and 143 ELDx with good success. I just like a bit more whack than that.

You make a great point and I believe I mentioned it earlier.

The coues deer if not taken with a high shoulder shot can run a couple hundred yards with vitals completely destroyed. I've taken many mule deer that upon impact bullets have caused hydrostatic shock and drop in the spot. These same bullets have hit several coues deer in the same spot and similar distances and they take off like lightning.

When you use the high shoulder shot though, you waste a large portion of meat on an animal that doesn't yield much as it is. And yes, when one drops you keep your sights on it for a few minutes to make sure it is dead. They can be hard to locate especially on tall grass that will completely cover them.

For those coming to hunt these deer, bring a good bullet that will destroy vitals and that is a little forgiving if shot placement is not ideal. Where we hunt it is very common to deal with 25 to 35 mph winds and gusts much higher than that.

 

[RYEWSKY25284]

As I promised... a report on my Coues deer hunt in AZ, with the 6.5 Creed, and the 85 grain Hammers. I harvested a beautiful 110" buck at 430 yards! My gun is a Wby Vanguard RC, stock box factory. Range Certified (RC), with a Leupold Vx6, 4-12 power, with the CDS dial, for the 85 grain Hammer at a blistering 3455 fps ave. My load for the Hammers shoots under .600" at 200 yards routinely. Having said that...

First shot at 458 yards, CDS set at 460, was 3" over the back, guide witness vapor trail. Second shot at 434 after CDS adjustment hit him just under the spine, buck never flinched, but started walking down hill. Third shot now at 429 after two clicks down, and hit him about 4" left of heart and 3" inches low. Buck jumped and kicked hind legs like a heart shot. All three perfect for windage.

After a half hour (never saw him lay down) we crossed the canyon and started trailing from second shot (no blood or hair), and second hit showed 3-4 blood spots, with one being about 3" diameter dark red blood.

We then painstakingly slow TRAILED THIS BUCK, with almost no blood at all, for 4 1/2 HOURS. He walked slowly the whole time, which gave me some hope, but crushed me when he started back up hill across the canyon, and we lost his trail. Decision time, looked like he when up the right side once, so instinct told me to go up the left and it proved correct. After climbing about 150 yards, I saw him walking slowly through brush and cactus, and when he stopped I dropped him at 137 yards with the finisher!

Observations: meat under spine was destroyed, with a few pedals found, small hole in, small hole out. Broad side shot, small hole in, small hole out. I would have thought either one would have been deadly in 50 yards. All blood stayed internal and in 6-7 feet of brush and cactus, all I can say is luck and Divine Intervention saved me from the loss of a B&C buck. Had we not trailed him so slow (and had to) he could have laid down, and we never would have found him. My guide remarked with jubilation, " I tell everybody all the time these bigger Coues bucks can be hard to kill"... I agree.View attachment 308345

That's a BIG DUDE..! Great Job. Congrats