Annealing before or after sizing?

[MOOSE39465]

Well Hornady screwed the pooch and put a .275 expander ball in my die from the factory. It's a 7mm Rem mag. So now that I have that rectified, my neck tension and ES should plummet. But I'll anneal before I size. Makes more sense I guess

Wow talking about neck tension.

 

[A/C Guy]

Dumping the brass into water will harden the brass that you just annealed.

Proper annealing requires the metal to cool gradually, slowly. We solder and braze brass and copper and all the manufacturers of the parts we solder and braze specifically say that dousing the metal with water will harden the metals.

If you look up/ Google annealing techniques, you will see that every where but on shooting forums, the experts say that annealing requires heating the metal then allowing the metal to cool slowly. It is during the slow cooling process that the grain structure aligns itself and you end up with consistent annealed metal. Dousing it or allowing it to cool too fast hardens the outside and makes the metal more likely to crack. This is scientific fact.
Someone somewhere on a shooting forum started this douse them in water technique which is scientifically proven to be wrong.

 

[MOOSE39465]

Dumping the brass into water will harden the brass that you just annealed.

Proper annealing requires the metal to cool gradually, slowly. We solder and braze brass and copper and all the manufacturers of the parts we solder and braze specifically say that dousing the metal with water will harden the metals.

If you look up/ Google annealing techniques, you will see that every where but on shooting forums, the experts say that annealing requires heating the metal then allowing the metal to cool slowly. It is during the slow cooling process that the grain structure aligns itself and you end up with consistent annealed metal. Dousing it or allowing it to cool too fast hardens the outside and makes the metal more likely to crack. This is scientific fact.
Someone somewhere on a shooting forum started this douse them on water technique which is scientifically proven to be wrong.

I do A/C work also so I know what you mean. I never knock mine over after annealing.

 

[aushunter1]

Dumping the brass into water will harden the brass that you just annealed.

Proper annealing requires the metal to cool gradually, slowly. We solder and braze brass and copper and all the manufacturers of the parts we solder and braze specifically say that dousing the metal with water will harden the metals.

If you look up/ Google annealing techniques, you will see that every where but on shooting forums, the experts say that annealing requires heating the metal then allowing the metal to cool slowly. It is during the slow cooling process that the grain structure aligns itself and you end up with consistent annealed metal. Dousing it or allowing it to cool too fast hardens the outside and makes the metal more likely to crack. This is scientific fact.
Someone somewhere on a shooting forum started this douse them on water technique which is scientifically proven to be wrong.

Ok I'll bite

What scientific evidence/literature do you base this off specifically to brass??

My understanding is quenching of "Ferrous" materials will produce a hardening effect but quenching of a "non Ferrous" material does not alter its annealed state.

So imo quench or dont quench brass is purely a choice but quenching brass does not harm or alter brass!

Annealing (materials science) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

PS, I love watching the blacksmiths quench harden their blades on Forged in Fire, always wanted to make my own knives.

 

[Rick Richard]

Dumping the brass into water will harden the brass that you just annealed.

Proper annealing requires the metal to cool gradually, slowly. We solder and braze brass and copper and all the manufacturers of the parts we solder and braze specifically say that dousing the metal with water will harden the metals.

If you look up/ Google annealing techniques, you will see that every where but on shooting forums, the experts say that annealing requires heating the metal then allowing the metal to cool slowly. It is during the slow cooling process that the grain structure aligns itself and you end up with consistent annealed metal. Dousing it or allowing it to cool too fast hardens the outside and makes the metal more likely to crack. This is scientific fact.
Someone somewhere on a shooting forum started this douse them on water technique which is scientifically proven to be wrong.

Wikipedia (metallurg)

"In the case of ferrous metals, such as steel, annealing is performed by heating the material (generally until glowing) for a while and then slowly letting it cool to room temperature in still air. Copper, silver and brass can be either cooled slowly in air, or quickly by quenching in water.[1] In this fashion, the metal is softened and prepared for further work such as shaping, stamping, or forming."

 

[Deviant]

I currently anneal by hand with a torch (I know) and I was just curious if it truly makes a difference to anneal before or after sizing. I anneal every firing because I'm sure I'm not annealing quite enough as I am holding the brass in my fingers. But my last round of annealing the brass was a very purty pink color. From what I could find, it sounds like residual sizing lube caused the pink hue. So I was thinking about annealing before I resize. Any pros or cons to either?

If you are holding your brass in your hand and not burning yourself you are not annealing it at all and are wasting your time because its not getting hot enough. Always anneal before sizing and maybe look at a cheap salt bath method or something so you get a good result or else you are just peeing in the wind. Not trying to sound like a jerk but these are facts.

 

[ButterBean]

If you are holding your brass in your hand and not burning yourself you are not annealing it at all and are wasting your time becauseits not gettinghot enough. Always anneal before sizing and maybe look at a cheap salt bath method or something so you get a good result or else you are just peeing in the wind. Not trying to sound like a jerk but these are facts.

He's not wasting his time, You can anneal by hand, I did it for years, and yes I checked it with Tempilaq, then I went to a drill and socket

 

[Deviant]

He's not wasting his time, You can anneal by hand, I did it for years, and yes I checked it with Tempilaq, then I went to a drill and socket

Yes but he is holding the brass in his hand while annealing so if it was getting hot enough it would burn the crap out of him.

 

[SCSCHNUR]

I love the Annealeez, I have the new style with the PMW control. It is by far one of the best and cheapest, at $275.00 delivered to the front door, annealers on the market. It's very compact, has a large hopper, and very consistent at annealing the brass. I use Forster micro seating dies for all of my rifles. I seen a review on the RCBS master die kit the other day and it looked very interesting. How is the accuratesy and the repeatability compared to your Forster seating dies??? The kit came with different die bodies and seating stems for different calibers and a micro adjuster. Is this the same beast that you are talking about???

Don't know about a kit mine is just a micrmeter on the top with window to drop bullet into that is the RCBS Micrometer seating die. What makes the difference to me is the LE Wilson Expanding Mandrell for neck as I don't pull the resizing expander ball back through you neck of the bullet. Decreases run out to almost nill. Check out the LE WIlson Expander die you can buy 22,6mm,6.5mm 7mm and 30 cal mandrels to use in the same die. I liked it over the Sinclair. Redding body dies for resizing case doesn't touch the neck.

 

[A/C Guy]

Annealing only occurs at a temperature hotter than you could hold the brass.
The base will get too hot to handle. That is one reason the case in the pan of water technique was started. The water also prevented the base from getting too soft/ annealed while heating the neck.

Dousing the case in water TEMPERS the brass. While it is similar to annealing, it is not the same.

What is the Difference between Heat Treatment, Annealing, and Tempering?

This article is about the difference between heat treatment, annealing, and tempering. The article explains the effects of annealing and tempering on the physical properties of metals, such as ductility, strength, and brittleness. Also explained are the methods for annealing and tempering, as...

www.brighthubengineering.com

The critical temperature for annealing brass is almost 700˚, heating the brass to 600˚ for an hour will anneal the brass. The closer you get to 700˚ without going over the quicker the anneal process occurs. Annealing requires time for the grain structure to align properly, it can not be rushed. Dropping the case in water tempers the case, similar to annealing, but not the same. For maximum consistency, anneal, not temper the case mouth/neck. Tempering will give inconsistent neck tensions and increase your standard deviation.

 

[A/C Guy]

Ok I'll bite

What scientific evidence/literature do you base this off specifically to brass??

This guy did a great job providing the basics.

Understanding Brass Annealing - The Bloke

In the first part of a series on annealing - we will cover off exactly what annealing is and what it does, in the second, we will cover off a couple of specific methods to anneal and finally, my current methodology.

thebloke.co.nz

 

[A/C Guy]

Wikipedia (metallurg)

"In the case of ferrous metals, such as steel, annealing is performed by heating the material (generally until glowing) for a while and then slowly letting it cool to room temperature in still air. Copper, silver and brass can be either cooled slowly in air, or quickly by quenching in water.[1] In this fashion, the metal is softened and prepared for further work such as shaping, stamping, or forming."

Wiki is wrong, steel requires a more gradual cooling process, literally hours or even days depending upon the specifics.

From the link I provided above:

Annealing
Annealing is a process in which a metal is heated to a particular high temperature, held there for a period of between several hours and several days, and allowed to cool. In order for the annealing process to occur correctly, this cooling process must be slow in steels and other ferrous metals. Metals are generally annealed at a temperature slightly above the point at which recrystallization occurs. Special furnaces are used in the annealing process. Conditions in these furnaces are tightly controlled to ensure that the expected changes are taking place.



If the steel being annealed is thin and doesn't have adequate thermal mass, then it is place on top of a larger thicker piece of steel heated to almost the same temperature and then placed in an insulated container or vault to cool gradually in shops where a furnace is not conveniently available. Air cooling tempers the steel. Annealing requires more time.

Same with brass. Haste makes waste. Don't temper, anneal your brass.

 

[Hoppsing55]

Dumping the brass into water will harden the brass that you just annealed.

Proper annealing requires the metal to cool gradually, slowly. We solder and braze brass and copper and all the manufacturers of the parts we solder and braze specifically say that dousing the metal with water will harden the metals.

If you look up/ Google annealing techniques, you will see that every where but on shooting forums, the experts say that annealing requires heating the metal then allowing the metal to cool slowly. It is during the slow cooling process that the grain structure aligns itself and you end up with consistent annealed metal. Dousing it or allowing it to cool too fast hardens the outside and makes the metal more likely to crack. This is scientific fact.
Someone somewhere on a shooting forum started this douse them in water technique which is scientifically proven to be wrong.

Most non-ferrous metals, like alloys of copper and some high alloy steels such as austenitic stainless steel (304, 316), produce an opposite effect when these are quenched: they soften. Brass an alloy of copper - and a non-ferrous metal is not hardened by quenching after heating to a "critical annealing temp". Most Ferrous metals on the other hand, are hardened by "quickly cooling / quenching".

 

[A/C Guy]

Most non-ferrous metals, like alloys of copper and some high alloy steels such as austenitic stainless steel (304, 316), produce an opposite effect when these are quenched: they soften. Brass an alloy of copper - and a non-ferrous metal is not hardened by quenching after heating to a "critical annealing temp". Most Ferrous metals on the other hand, are hardened by "quickly cooling / quenching.

As I stated, the manufacturers of brass components specifically told us to never quench brass as it will temper and make it brittle. Moosehead was told the same.
I'll go with the information provided by engineers who know metallurgy.

Read the links I provided. You guys are tempering when you douse the brass. Similar, but not the same.