Allen Mag Shooters Group

[Fiftydriver]

Slopeshunter,

Talking now as a hunter and shooter instead of a gunsmith, I hunted with big single shot handguns for around 13 years and got so used to having a single shot with me that now when I use a rifle, I never have any problems using a single shot rifle as well. Once you get used to it a single shot is just as fast to shoot as a repeater but has many advantages that I prefer over a repeater that have pretty much already been mentioned.

if your looking to have a long range rifle made, never overlook the simplistic beauty of a bolt action single shot. Repeaters work extremely well and are more then accurate enough for any shooting we could ever deal with when made properly but there is just special about using a one shooter.

Whats that old saying, "Heed the man that carries a single shot rifle, he likely knows how to use it!!"

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[41mag]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you guys build single shots or repeaters? What was your reasoning for going with what you chose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Slopes,

I originally was going to do the single shot or ADL version, as that is what the donor action was, and that is the stock I ordered. However after thinking about it some, I went with the BDL conversion so I wouldn't be kicking myself later. Right now I have the BR follower installed and shoot it single shot. I just wanted the option of being able to go repeater as well as being able to drop the rounds from the mag with out having to use the bolt to do it.

It was just a personal preference. I figured that since I was spending the bucks, I might a well go ahead and get all the bells and whistles. If I ever decided to swap calibers or barrels I now have everything that I would need and don't have to add it into a later project.

IF it shoots better as an ADL due to being more rigid, I personally would have a **** hard time trying to prove it to myself or anyone else.

 

[Supermag]

thanks, kirby!

Can't wait to here about the new action and how the AX's work. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[Slopeshunter]

[ QUOTE ]
"Heed the man that carries a single shot rifle, he likely knows how to use it!!"

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a excellent quote Kirby! I think it's a mental thing when one is used to using a bolt action with magazine, when you think about a single-shot, mentally it's like a step backwards "what no magazine" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif. Even though I completely believe you when you say that over time one develops a system to quickly get that second round loaded.

Here's a question. When you're hunting long range, how often do you find that you need to get a second round in there?

Cheers!

 

[lerch]

That is a **** good quote Kirby!! growing up i and being around a bunch of farmers everyone always had their truck gun, most were A-bolts and Savages in 223 or something. One old guy always had a Browning High Wall in 6mm Rem and that always meant something to me, plus the grizzled old SOB could shoot too!!!!!!

steve

 

[Fiftydriver]

Slopeshunter,

Realize a couple things, long range hunting is a very deliberate type of hunting. The game generally has no idea that a pair of eyes is even upon them. The animals are calm, generally feeding or bedded and there is no hurry at all.

Also, you are set up in most cases at a position with rifle, ranging gear, drop charts, spotters and ammo sitting there ready to roll. You have plenty of time to set up, you have plenty of time to get ready for the shot and you have plenty of time to shoot.

By the time the trigger pulls on that first shot, everything is and has been in place generally for quite some time. Its getting prepared before hand that will make you successful more then anything. That has to do with practice on the rifle but also in being prepared for that second shot.

As far as your question about how often I need a second shot when shooting at long range. I will be honest, it happens. Here in Montana, I took 5 head of game at ranges from 310 to 745 yards. That was with 6 shots total being fired. The one miss I had was on my whitetail buck. He was at a measured 650 yards, I set up but made the mistake of leaving the sling on the rifle wrapped to the outside of the rear sand bag. I was laying on a slight angled hill and when the 7mm AM recoiled, the rifle was pulled to the right and thats exactly where the bullet landed.

The buck ran out, having no idea at all where the shot came from or where he should run to be safe, I quickly unhooked the rear sling attachment, ranged the buck at 745 yards and made the second shot count through the shoulders. Other then that the game I took in Montana last fall were all one shot kills with the average kill range at 618 yards.

Another example was my Idaho hunt with Shawn Carlock for whitetails. I will admit, I missed a fine whitetail at a relatively comfortable 720 yards. The reason was simple, canyon winds got me and Also I did not have the rear of the rifle solidly supported.

A couple days after that we found a very nice buck and watched him walk a couple hundred yards up a game trail until he finally gave us a shot. The first shot was a killing shot but impacted at the back of the lungs/liver area. In the area we were hunting I wanted to shoot until I could not see the buck any more. I put four bullets into that buck in roughly 35 seconds out of a single shot rifle. The reason he stuck around that long was because the first shot had done severe damage and the buck was really unable to run, also, again, the buck was totally calm when he got hit, no adrenilen to get him running. This is a huge bonus to long range hunting.

A repeating rifle would not have been any faster and all hits were to the vitals.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Fiftydriver]

Hopefully soon I will have alot to talk about with both!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Slopeshunter]

[ QUOTE ]
Realize a couple things, long range hunting is a very deliberate type of hunting. The game generally has no idea that a pair of eyes is even upon them. The animals are calm, generally feeding or bedded and there is no hurry at all.

Also, you are set up in most cases at a position with rifle, ranging gear, drop charts, spotters and ammo sitting there ready to roll. You have plenty of time to set up, you have plenty of time to get ready for the shot and you have plenty of time to shoot.

By the time the trigger pulls on that first shot, everything is and has been in place generally for quite some time. Its getting prepared before hand that will make you successful more then anything. That has to do with practice on the rifle but also in being prepared for that second shot

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent points, thanks!

 

[NYLES]

Just bumpin us back to the top!

 

[Buffalobob]

I went down to Quantico today to run my drops with the 7AM one more time. I had shoot them in back in April but was not too happy with the job I did.

I kept the bullets in a cooler until it was time to shoot and that kept them pretty cool being as the summer temperatures will cause pressure problems.

I was pretty happy that my 1000 yard drops were 17.2 MOA which is exactly what I had gotten back in April.

Here is a picture of a container lid I shot at 600 yards.

I need to get all of my empty cases loaded up and then I am ready for elk season.

 

[NYLES]

BB,
your ready!

 

[Fiftydriver]

BB,

Looks like she is still putting them where she needs to be!!!

Good luck this fall, I would check on national forest restrictions before coming out west. we are burning up out here!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Buffalobob]

7 mm Allen Magnum Brass

I had cornmeal formed my brass and hunted with the cornmeal formed brass and like others before me had hunted successfully with that brass. It was very accurate. However all good things come to an end and nearly all of my cornmeal brass was shot up and I now had mostly fully formed brass. So I annealed the fully formed brass, full length sized it and loaded it up with the same powder charge and bullet and primer and went to the range today. I had just enough of the cornmeal formed loads left to run a side by side comparison. These are some of the things I found.

1. The fully formed brass shoots to a different point of impact than the cornmeal formed brass at 100 yards and 600 yards (0.5MOA).

2. The fully formed brass seems to have higher pressure with the same powder charge than the cornmeal formed brass.

3. Even with the higher pressures the fully formed brass seemed to have more drop at 600 yards than the cornmeal formed brass with the same powder charge.
4. I tested two rounds of 102.5 grains of H US 869 and two rouunds of 103 grains of H US 869 at 600 yards to see what the point of impact would be.
5. To match the drops of the cornmeal formed brass with a 102 grains of H US 869 it appears I would need about 103 grains of H US869. At 70+ degrees temperature 103 grains of H US is very, very touchy and you cannot let it sit in a hot chamber and heat up before pulling the trigger. I was very careful to keep my bullets in the cooler and not shoot faster than once in five minutes and still things got interesting.

The action I use is a Nesika M and it is smooth. I lubed the lugs. So when you start noticing bolt lift with it you have a good idea that pressures are different and it is time to quit and go home

I post this information so anybody else who has Kirby to build them a great elk rifle will know a few things about the transition from cornmeal brass to fully formed brass. While the difference is not great at the shorter ranges it is enough to cause problems past 1K.

 

[Fiftydriver]

BB,

That is very good information and allows me to add another recommendation to my AM shooters.

If you do fireform with corn meal or any other low pressure forming technique, it is always important to hunt with the brass that you have performed the final sight in with.

By that I mean, if your going to use freshly formed cases for the big game season, make sure the cases you sight the rilfe in with are the same lot you shoot at game.

If you want to use cases that have one high pressure firing on them, make sure all your cases are on the same round firing when you take them to the field.

Not only does this make sure your loads will be consistant but also that you will be able to keep track of the number of firings on each lot of cases which I recommend.

I always recommend shooting up an entire lot of brass before reloading them. It is because of this that I generally form up either 50 or 100 cases and split them up into two groups of 25 or 50 cases.

That way I can finish up one batch and still have the second batch of the same lot to shoot. Then I can reload the first fired batch while finishing up the second half of the first batch. Sounds kind of confusing but it really is not.

Just a way to make sure that you do not have some cases that have one firing, some that have 4 firings and some that have 6 firings all in the same lot of brass.

Once a case has been fired under high pressure live fire, after that the difference will be very little but keeping track of your firings per case is always a good idea.

I do not think its a matter of the corn meal forming method causing the slight point of impact change compared to once fired cases. I think this is common with any "virgin" case what is high pressure fired for the first time.

Like all else, when you put a 200 gr 7mm bullet on top of +100 grains of powder everything you see from the bolt face to the target will be magnified. This is why it seems at times you are seeing things for the first time shooting these extreme rounds. that is really not the case, its just that in the extreme cases, it makes a difference you can actually see and realize its happening.

Good point also about letting US869 heat up. All ball powders or all powders to some degree will do this. If your shooting in hot temps, always keep your ammo out of direct sunlight and never let a round cook in a hot chamber.

Again, good report.

Kirby Allen(50)