rscott5028
Well-Known Member
Code4,
My apologies. I probably over-reacted to your posts. But, I do agree with your last point.
BTW - I lived near Tolwe about 25 years ago. So, yes. It does make sense.
Regards,
Richard
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Africa perfect rifle for elephant,buffalo,plains game?
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My apologies. I probably over-reacted to your posts. But, I do agree with your last point.
BTW - I lived near Tolwe about 25 years ago. So, yes. It does make sense.
Regards,
Richard
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
one more time! Doubles never have a feed jam, nor do the have problems with bullets being drive deep into the case like a magazine rifle does. They also tend to point quicker and better than the longer bolt guns when your looking at a half second between being a grease spot on the ground and surviving a charge from an unhappy cape buffallo. Most double rifles I've been around use auto ejectors, and you'd be surprised at how fast you can reload and shoot another pair of bullets. The ones that fail usually are bolt guns.
gary
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
most all shots for the big five or six will be well under 100 yards, and often well under fifty. Scopes fail under that kind of recoil, but the open sight never does. A good hit with a .338mag on a lion is just fine till your shot is off a few inches. Then somebody's gotta go in there and finish him off with a lion slug out of a shot gun. Buffallo have been known to run for a couple miles with their heart shot to pieces. Plus the very thought that a 416 Remington will bust the center mass of a buffallo will only get you turned into a red spot in the mud! Most folks have no idea how fast a big male lion can move! (hint: he will run a cheetah down and kill it in 100 yards or less). Buffallo can run 25 mph for miles and miles. Read what Peter Capstick had to say about Africa. They hunt Leopards all the time with 30-06's and even a 25-06 every now and then. But your shot's gotta be perfect. A wounded leopard is about the nastiest thing on the planet to finish off; if he dosn't double back and finish the job himself.
gary
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
the first time I heard about this was in some stuff that Capstick published. I asked a well known gunsmith who specialized in big bore rifles you'd hunt in Africa with. He said it was common for the recoil to drive the bullet back into the case while it was in the magazine. Then I asked a couple guys I know that hunt buffallo and lion every year, and each one had at onetime or another experienced the same problem. It's not actually the recoil of round being fired, but the round moving in the magazine under a very violent recoil. Just like a hammer beating the bullet deeper and deeper in the case everytime you fire a round.
gary
rscott5028
Well-Known Member
Gary,
I thought the OP was about using a single rifle for across the board plains game as well as dangerous game. In that context, I was simply saying that a double with iron sights is better for dangerous game. ...close, fast, powerful, reliable
A bolt with a scope is better for plains game. ...accurate, longer range
I wouldn't want just one rifle. But, if I could only have just one rifle for everything, it would be a 375 H&H bolt rifle. But, I would certainly want a PH with a good double along side for dangerous game.
thanks,
-- richard
Code 4 appreciate you adding your comments. I grew up next to the Kruger Park and as a teenager did a lot of shooting of problem animals. My favorite was riding out on my horse and my dog in the veld and chasing down game - a minor echo of Gordon Cummings and Baldwin. Our neighbor farmers had an ongoing battle with big cats and elephant raids. I don't at all claim to be an expert since I ve not shot 1000 plus elephants or for that matter any but I ve talked to both game rangers and Ph who have a lot of experience . I go back to Africa nearly yearly, use 375s but this year a 416 Dakota. Of note most of the culling in Kp and Rhodesia was done with 7.62 NATO Fn R1 rifles with 20 inch magazines just like my army issue with 458 backup. As far as 416 Rigby failures that has been rare, probably older factory loads and frontal chest shots but still an excellent round. Not quite as effective for elephant but like the 375s if not for multiple hunts would be fine. My comment about 600s is based on Pondoro Taylors huge experience with them. Of note, in Magnum magazine there was an article 7 years ago about a hunter placing 6 perfect shots followed by one by the ph for an elephant brain but did not bring it down so the ph used his 450Ne and that instantly felled it. and yes I do sometimes read African safari on line (thanks for the link at the top of your post) but this sight teaches more and has more discussion. I was hoping this post would be of value to LR members interested or headed to Africa. As far as doubles vs bolt there are clearly pros and cons. Doubles pro- fast, light in 450,470, two quick shots, iron sights for close work, natural for shotgun shooters, and romantic traditional African rifle. Cons - price, regulated to a specific bullet and powder, older ones the rifle steel is often soft, you may never want to shoot an antique, the older rifles may rupture, if ther are a lot of animals being shot like with culling multiple shots take longer, less accurate and most group only about 6" at 50 paces, the right barrel is more worn in an older one because most reload after firing one shot and yes when dirty muddy or wet can be difficult to closer during reloading. - some difference between types. Karamajo Bell stopped using doubles for this latter reason. Bolts - pro - accuracy, cheaper, 3-5 shots typical with magazine like CZ 550, readily available ammo, easier to scope , jamming uncommon with factory loads except Remmington ( high pressures and heat of Africa hence generally not recommended by Ph unless worked on to convert to Mauser action and non rotating claw extraction and added larger extractor), muzzle brake on larger ones, work horses, longer ranges and can use different rounds for both animals and ranges. Cons - slower second shot, can jam in African heat, not fancy or artistic for showing off and telling the story! Just a note about Rugers - occasional jam from Africa heat, single shot so slightly slower to reload, very accurate, based on Farquharson patent (probably copied from American Alexander Henry), reliable, more powerful than equivalent 375 H&H, 416 Rigby, lighter, more recoil, and can be made to chamber Jefferies 500 or even 600 NE. Selous describes using a Gibbs - Farquherson at the end of his career as his favorite rifle (after his profesinal hunting). My favorite is a single shot 375 and with practice it s fairly quick to reload. If you choose a lighter rifle, double or single remember you Ph is ther to back you up often also with an apprentice. Obviously shot placement, SD, performance, bullet type (solids for elephant brain, buffalo followup and premier heavy rounds like Barnes X, Rhino (particularly 380 Rhino in 375), Hornady, swift A frame,Trophy bonded bear claw etc are all critical. Africa is a wonderful experience and remember it is cheaper than Alaska and many guided elk hunts plus the weather is great, it s very exciting, and the food is great. Have fun!
Rocky Mountain
Well-Known Member
The 458 lott and its bigger 3 inch brother are great performers and would be my pick but some people just don't handle the recoil well. The 416 Rem mag and barnes X 400 grainers in the right spot for some maybe a better choice with a PH backing up with a big double.
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
I think I'm the one who screwed the thread up! Somehow I missed the plains game phrase, and that's a different story. First of all the rifle (assuming it's a bolt gun now) would have a detachable mounts on the scope, and with a spare scope. I would not use a scope stronger than 10X, and probably would be looking at an 8x Leupold.
I concur with you that the .375 H&H would be a fine caliber, but also do not leave the 416 Rigby out of the mix. These two are probably your best bet when it comes to a chance of dining out with buff and lion, but not so great for those two hundred yard shots (the .375 is best here).
Personally I can't see how (or why) you would go hunting in Africa with only one gun! I know folks that go every year, and they take four rifles each between the two of them. Two long distance guns and two dangerous game rifles (note these two have told me many times over that they have no desire to kill elephant or rhino). They usually take a 41 caliber set and something in the .338 area (I don't know what they are using in 2011). They took .416 Weatherbys and Remingtons a few years back, and they didn't do all that well on buffallo. Yet a trip to Eric's place will show you a minimum of a dozen doubles being tuned up for a grand hunt in Africa, so a few folks must know something. You will also notice that it's a rare thing to see anything under 40 caliber with them except for the .375 H&H. But you also don't see rounds like the .458 Win. as much as you'd think in them (actually unusual). You see rounds like the .450 #2 nitro express (hurts to even look it the round) and .470's. I think if I hit Powerball, and just had to go for one last trip, I'd take more than one gun. I'd use Weatherby MK V's in .300 for plains game, and either a .416 Rigby or a .416 Taylor.
gary
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
Bullet goes too fast with the .416 Remington, and .416 Weatherby. Often causing it to break up. Your looking for something like 2200fps and a solid. But the Remington works just fine on lion, but so will a .340 Weatherby using the right bullet. The .458 Lott is a great round, but not really much better than a 458 Win
gary
Dare we say that most would recommend a 375 H&H /378 Wby for plains game and one buffalo or two? If you plan for more buffalo a 416 Rigby/Dakota / 404 Jeffrey would be a good choice. For buffalo elephant combo 450 double or 458 Lott but if you plan to do a lot of buff and ele hunting, then the 500 (Gibbs / jeffrey ) is a good choice , especially if you don't have much in the way of backup or plan to go professional Ph. Remember you have usually a Ph backing you. There are many options available but bullet placement and correct selection of premier expanding rounds or solids is also critical.
Just an update after 3 trips to Africa and chats to friends. A friend I hunted with did great with a 30-06 on plains. The rifle was very accurate and he handled the recoil very well. 375 also did great on plains but these animals are tough. A steinbok with guts shot out still kept on going. Had a 416 Rigby but it jammed and could not get it open. Yes bolts do have problems also. Two buffaloes came at us and we opened fire on the one that did not turn. Two 375, one through both lungs and one through heart did not stop him. Ran a crcle behind us as we ran side ways, took another at least two 375 s and finally went down with a 470 double i put into the spine. A relative has hunted 14 buffs including charges and had a buff with 3 375 s in the heart that still did not stop. Alos had 6 shots of 458 wiinchester fail on elephant. He swears by Gibbs 505 for this reason (not 375 or 416) for buffalo and elephant. The suggestion of two rifles is a good one if you are planning several trips. A 300 or 338 for plains will work well. Remember the heavy rifles become an issue if you are walking 10-15miles a day for plains. If you do bring two, a bore larger than 375 is wise. If you shoot regularly a bolt, stay with a bolt. If you take a double, put at least 100 rounds though it so you know how to handle it including the trigger and fast loading. The Barnes triple shocks in the 30-06, 375 and 416 worked very well on plains and buffalo although many would argue for solids for buffalo after first shot. For buffalo I still think a 416 is a good choice. Out of some 25 animals the longest shot was an inyala at 215 paces. Hope this is useful for those of you planning a trip even though there is no perfect answer of what to bring and the most important factors are practice, what you are comfortable with and shot placement.
Been there a couple of times. Only one gun for dangerous game and plains?....Did that my first trip with a 375 H&H. I was great for plains game with my farthest shot a Kudu at over 300 yards. Did OK for the big stuff with a little distance between you and the animal. I don't care what anybody says, I felt under gunned. Subsequent trip used the 375 for Plains game. 450 H&H double rifle for lion and buffalo. Glad I did. Both animals were taken at very close range in very thick cover. My personal view for the big stuff(tracked, not baited lions), is use something that makes a big hole and penetrates well, open sights, and a fast follow up shot. Either a double, or you better be really fast with a reliable bolt rifle. Do not assume your PH will be in a position to back you. Count on yourself. What I learned: If you are going to spend the bucks and go all the way to Africa for the trip of a lifetime, don't compromise with one rifle.
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
you can run .375H&H rounds thru a .375 Weatherby mag, but not a .378mag. The .375 WBY Mag is one of the best magnum rounds ever made
gary
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
one problem with bolt guns not addressed here is the bullets being pushed back into the case during heavy recoil. This is a well known problem with rounds like the .458 Winchester, and you just can't get enough crimp. Yet the same round in a double will virtually never see that problem because it dosn't use a magazine.
Many folks feel that with buff and elephant there's never really enough gun! Yet many buffalo are shot every years with a .375 H&H. I personally think a 416 Rigby would be the better, and I'm kind of a fan of the 416 Taylor.
gary
