Advice, or talk some sense into me please

[MudRunner2005]

I thought the 6.5 got popular in the 70s. I know the 264 WM was THE LR RIG back then since the bullets available for 30 cal and even the 7mm sucked At least that's how I remember it. Of course my memory is &^$( so IDK.

Someone said the reason hey don't like the Creed is because we had a perfectly good round in the 260 that Remington crapped all over just like every other round they touch.

In 1975 Remington and Winchester were THE gun market. Ruger was for weirdos and Savages were for broke weirdos.

HORNADY was a niche bullet maker that probably grossed $100k a yr in sales. WHERE ARE THEY NOW?

Great management at a small company will eventually overtake and someday BURY a terribly managed GIANT like big green.

The day Hornady or Lapua opens a firearm line.........Remington stock will go down 1000%.

Back in the day (here in America), the 6.5 bullet selection was very minimal, and the .264 WinMag was introduced in 1959. And in 1962, Remington introduced the brand new model 700, and it was chambered for the brand new 7mm Remington Magnum. Which used basically the same exact case as the .264 WinMag, but had a larger, heavier, higher BC 7mm bullet. The 7mmRM became instantly more popular and the .264 WinMag almost went the way of the dinosaur...

 

[MudRunner2005]

Kind of afraid that ya got them and me with that one. Hornady's marketing, support and READY SUPPLY of cheap good ammo has been the real key to the Creed.

Everyone else produces these wonderguns and then either ya can't AFFORD to feed them or can't FIND ammo or it isn't ACCURATE

The Hornady Creed ammo is the only factory ammo I have ever felt comfortable shooting much past 50 FT. SD and ES is close to as good as I can build and it will BUGHOLE.

Yeah Creed guys can be supporters but if BIG GREEN cowpatty would take a lesson from them we would all be a lot happier I think.

Here is my summation of the gun market right now.

Remington.....just doesn't care, too much military $$$$.
Winchester......living off of a name.
Ruger......has a clue but a lil quirky and smiths still aren't fond of them.
Savage......Trying to transition from great shooting cheap to highly profitable and building a name.
Hornady, Tikka, Sako, Weatherby......know WHAT they are doing, WHY they are doing it and WHERE they come from and are GOING.

Remmy and Winny need to kick the board out on the street and BECOME real GUN companies again.

Just MHO of course.

Weatherby knows exactly what they're doing...Screwing you over at a premium price...Living on old-tech, a prayer, and a name that previously stood for quality. You get Remington QC in a Cooper/Montana package. Kind of like when Remington bought-out Dakota Arms...Withing 1 WEEK, they went to crap. $12,000 rifles I wouldn't have given $1,200 for. Weatherby don't give a crap about the customer...They're only 1 baby-step away from being Winchester on your list... If they truly cared about their customers, then in 2004 they would have never stopped using cut-rifled Krieger barrels in their MKV rifles, and swapped to cheap button-rifled Criterions, and then jacked the price up even more. After seeing sales decline they finally started using Kriegers again. Took them over a decade to realize it was a bad move to try to screw your customers while your stealing their wallet by jacking up your prices on known lesser-quality rifles. And charging over $1,500 for a factory rifle and only giving you a 1.5 MOA guarantee at 100 yards. What a joke.

End rant.

 

[toddc]

Weatherby knows exactly what they're doing...Screwing you over at a premium price...Living on old-tech, a prayer, and a name that previously stood for quality. You get Remington QC in a Cooper/Montana package. Kind of like when Remington bought-out Dakota Arms...Withing 1 WEEK, they went to crap. $12,000 rifles I wouldn't have given $1,200 for. Weatherby don't give a crap about the customer...They're only 1 baby-step away from being Winchester on your list... If they truly cared about their customers, then in 2004 they would have never stopped using cut-rifled Krieger barrels in their MKV rifles, and swapped to cheap button-rifled Criterions, and then jacked the price up even more. After seeing sales decline they finally started using Kriegers again. Took them over a decade to realize it was a bad move to try to screw your customers while your stealing their wallet by jacking up your prices on known lesser-quality rifles. And charging over $1,500 for a factory rifle and only giving you a 1.5 MOA guarantee at 100 yards. What a joke.

End rant.

LOL. A Criterion barrel is still loads better than anything any other maker was running. I have burned 3 or 4 down and never had an issue with them. My 6.5 Creed is a Criterion of all things and is a hummer for an AR.
I know Weatherby twisted your chain on that deal and don't blame you for hating on them, I probably would as well. Any corporate entity crap slips thru the cracks and the end desire of ANY company is PROFIT.
Kreiger makes and has made great tubes but Criterion is hardly a ball of crap.

The cut vs button debate is as old as rifles but Kreiger didn't build Criterion just to screw everyone. If they did then why stay with Kreiger?

I have had cut and button both that shoot lights out as had every precision shooting sport in the world. Heck I even hear some hammer built barrels shoot well according to some guy from Alabama.

 

[toddc]

Back in the day (here in America), the 6.5 bullet selection was very minimal, and the .264 WinMag was introduced in 1959. And in 1962, Remington introduced the brand new model 700, and it was chambered for the brand new 7mm Remington Magnum. Which used basically the same exact case as the .264 WinMag, but had a larger, heavier, higher BC 7mm bullet. The 7mmRM became instantly more popular and the .264 WinMag almost went the way of the dinosaur...

There were bullets available but the twist on stock barrels wasn't right and ammo was pushed by the factory in lighter weights to show a higher velocity. The 7RM flourished because of twist more than bullet selection. There has ALWAYS been great bullets out there for the 6.5 and the WM was widely used in LRH before the advent of lasers as it was more suited to a PBR style setup. It died quickly commercially but plenty of people were running it over a 7mm who reloaded. Just one more example of twists and commercially available ammo determining a cartridges commercial success not reloaders and LRH guys.

 

[MudRunner2005]

LOL. A Criterion barrel is still loads better than anything any other maker was running. I have burned 3 or 4 down and never had an issue with them. My 6.5 Creed is a Criterion of all things and is a hummer for an AR.
I know Weatherby twisted your chain on that deal and don't blame you for hating on them, I probably would as well. Any corporate entity crap slips thru the cracks and the end desire of ANY company is PROFIT.
Kreiger makes and has made great tubes but Criterion is hardly a ball of crap.

The cut vs button debate is as old as rifles but Kreiger didn't build Criterion just to screw everyone. If they did then why stay with Kreiger?

I have had cut and button both that shoot lights out as had every precision shooting sport in the world. Heck I even hear some hammer built barrels shoot well according to some guy from Alabama.

If the same thing had happened to me from a rifle from any other company, I would have been just as ****ed off. It's not that I have a hard-on to hating Weatherby (which a lot of people seem to think). I don't have a personal vendetta against them, they just happened to be the one that screwed me with a $2,000 tomato spike...So I try to let people know that just because you have been told that money buys quality, that is not always the case. There are smarter investments in the rifle world than a $2,000+ factory rifle. I learned that one the hard way. I don't even buy high-dollar Remingtons anymore. I buy $250-350 pawn shop ADL's and build on them because QC for any mass-produced rifle is a crap-shoot.

I also can't stand corporate greed, and it seems that all the major manufacturers have fallen prey to this. It just sickens me to see these once-great companies that built this country, no longer take pride in the products they produce. This is AMERICA! It was built on the blood, sweat, tears, backs, and lives of those who strived for more and better. We were once the pinnacle of advanced technology in the world, and look at us now...We're probably not even in the top 5 anymore. And all because we have become lazy and every aspect of our world is owned by some greedy corporate entity that's only out to screw over anyone and everyone so can make an extra dime...

Yes, I do have some good-shooting hammer-forged barrels. I have some good-shooting cut-rifled barrels, and button-rifled barrels. But you don't screw your customers by getting greedy and cheeping-out, and letting them THINK they are still getting the same quality product as what they had been for decades. That's when companies fall, is when corporate greed runs rampant. Same reason Remington's QC has slipped... Corporate greed on the Freedom Group level. Same reason AAC suppressors are no longer the top-dog...Freedom Group/Remington bought them out, and next thing you know, the company that used to lead the pack is now falling behind the curve.

 

[toddc]

If the same thing had happened to me from a rifle from any other company, I would have been just as ****ed off. It's not that I have a hard-on to hating Weatherby (which a lot of people seem to think). I don't have a personal vendetta against them, they just happened to be the one that screwed me with a $2,000 tomato spike...So I try to let people know that just because you have been told that money buys quality, that is not always the case. There are smarter investments in the rifle world than a $2,000+ factory rifle. I learned that one the hard way. I don't even buy high-dollar Remingtons anymore. I buy $250-350 pawn shop ADL's and build on them because QC for any mass-produced rifle is a crap-shoot.

Yes, I do have some good-shooting hammer-forged barrels. I have some good-shooting cut-rifled barrels, and button-rifled barrels. But you don't screw your customers by getting greedy and cheeping-out, and letting them THINK they are still getting the same quality product as what they had been for decades. That's when companies fall, is when corporate greed runs rampant. Same reason Remington's QC has slipped... Corporate greed on the Freedom Group level. Same reason AAC suppressors are no longer the top-dog...Freedom Group/Remington bought them out, and next thing you know, the company that used to lead the pack is now falling behind the curve.

I've seen just about every barrel maker build crap AND cream. A failure like yours is 100% a fluke manufacturing snafu that could have just as easily happened with a Krieger, Hart or Remington as that Criterion.
Weatherby's failure to take care of you is another matter and I 1000000% agree that a corporate mentality has been the ruination of more companies than anyone will ever be able to count.

Anything I buy I look at CURRENT build QC, raw materials and CSI. I am in the automotive industry and every maker has built JUNK at one time and they have all built DIAMONDS at one time. It's just a cyclical thing that any organization much bigger than a 1 man shop will go thru. Unless the CEO personally builds AND then has someone better than him QC it.....stuff will fall thru the cracks.

CSI is what separates the asshats from the great ones in this regard....but unfortunately CSI departments are run by HUMANS as well and are CYCLICAL in nature also.

Do a bunch of research or build it yourself or buyer beware. And it better be CURRENT RESEARCH. Some years of cars and guns are great and the years on either side are issues. Glass is like this in many ways also. I never buy glass by NAME. I go look thru it and run tests BEFORE I buy.

Buying on a NAME is what gets us in trouble. Remington was an upstart to Winny in the old days. Now Savage and even Mossberg and others are giving Remmy a run. Kia's were piles of junk 25 yrs ago and go 300k now. Honda airbags are killing people. Chevy's have gone thru numerous crap to crazy good cycles and will probably continue to do so though CNC, robots and computers in general have helped in this regard. Machinery gets old, worn or plain outdated. Always has and always will.

No company will EVER stay ON TOP forever. And we are the silly ones for buying a BRAND not a PRODUCT. IDC what the NAME is....tell me how it's made, with what and how it gets fixed if it breaks.

That's why I build my own guns and cars. Every car I buy that's not for resale or a daily gets gone thru with a fine tooth comb and the known weak points addressed and the same on guns. That way when it takes a poop on me, I can fix it and have no one to blame but myself.

Just know I 100% agree with you Mudrunner but its a BUYER BEWARE kind of world, always has been and always will be as long as humans run these companies and $$$ is involved.

 

[WildRose]

I hear ya. In fact, I share a lot of those same thoughts. I've recommended the 6.5 Creedmoor dozens of times, and chose it myself 0.

The real story here is Remington has communicated in every way but advertising that they couldn't care less what serious shooters have to say. They NEVER supported the 260 or even troubled themselves with the reasoning behind the innovation. Hornady FULLY supported the Creedmoor, the what and the why, and in the process showed that buyers actually know what they want.

Can you imagine the products we'd have if Remington DID care or at least hired people who do?!

There was never any question as to why it was developed, the US Military wanted a good 6.5 because they found out yet again that the 5.56 is lacking in several very significant ways.

The .260 was Remington's offering to hopefully grab a big, fat, juicy military contract.

 

[WildRose]

I thought the 6.5 got popular in the 70s. I know the 264 WM was THE LR RIG back then since the bullets available for 30 cal and even the 7mm sucked At least that's how I remember it. Of course my memory is &^$( so IDK.

Someone said the reason hey don't like the Creed is because we had a perfectly good round in the 260 that Remington crapped all over just like every other round they touch.

In 1975 Remington and Winchester were THE gun market. Ruger was for weirdos and Savages were for broke weirdos.

HORNADY was a niche bullet maker that probably grossed $100k a yr in sales. WHERE ARE THEY NOW?

Great management at a small company will eventually overtake and someday BURY a terribly managed GIANT like big green.

The day Hornady or Lapua opens a firearm line.........Remington stock will go down 1000%.

You're about a decade off there. The .264wm hit it's peak early in the sixties and when the 7mm Rem came out along with some bad reviews about the .264wm being a "barrel burner" it lost it's edge to the 7mm RM. Since then there has always been a small but very loyal following that has kept it alive but basically on life support.

It was for example next to impossible to find any factory ammo for the .264wm in the eighties and even into the early 90's.

It's had something of a rebirth in the last decade or so with more and better factory rifle offerings in the caliber as well as factory ammo being much more readily available particularly online.

Every serious long range hunter and shooter ought to own at least one .264wm and probably a .270win just for good measure to go along with it.

Probably later this year I'm going to send one of my Win M70 classic stainless .300wm's off to Benchmark and have them rebarrel it in .264. Being a lover of the M70 action the gun cabinet will just never quite be filled properly witnout at least one M70 in .264.

 

[toddc]

Money almost never buys QUALITY it buys a BRAND. Branding is the main drive of corporations, how do we snare customers to buy from us FOREVER without really looking at a product. I quit buying factory rifles in the 80s when I realized this and even though I may work for Chevy, Ford or Honda at one time....I buy what is the best VALUE on the market at the CURRENT time when I buy a car.

Go to a store and take a gander at a Savage built on a 3 screw action right now. Pretty silly amount of value. I am guessing they are making very little $$$ on them, BUT they will leverage what those guns will do into increased sales of Axis level crap. I just picked up a Savage M112 Lapua and I couldn't build it for what they are selling them for and the machine work is REALLY close to custom level stuff. Next year they may be piles of junk.

Companies build great stuff on a thin margin and then take profit off of the name until they get caught and then.......do it again. Always have, always will as long as they are run for profit.

Heck in the car business there are cars you don't wanna buy built before April and the ones after April will run forever. Guns are the same thing.

You don't want anything built on a Monday morning or a Friday evening, I don't care what company it is lol.

 

[MudRunner2005]

You're about a decade off there. The .264wm hit it's peak early in the sixties and when the 7mm Rem came out along with some bad reviews about the .264wm being a "barrel burner" it lost it's edge to the 7mm RM. Since then there has always been a small but very loyal following that has kept it alive but basically on life support.

It was for example next to impossible to find any factory ammo for the .264wm in the eighties and even into the early 90's.

It's had something of a rebirth in the last decade or so with more and better factory rifle offerings in the caliber as well as factory ammo being much more readily available particularly online.

Every serious long range hunter and shooter ought to own at least one .264wm and probably a .270win just for good measure to go along with it.

Probably later this year I'm going to send one of my Win M70 classic stainless .300wm's off to Benchmark and have them rebarrel it in .264. Being a lover of the M70 action the gun cabinet will just never quite be filled properly witnout at least one M70 in .264.

Unless you own a .280 AI and/or a 7mm RemMag...Which will do what they can, but better.

 

[WildRose]

None of these cartridges check all the boxes. The line that probably means as much as the rest combined is cheap match ammo with killer bullets, none have that. The Creedmoor's popularity is driven by the fact that you get them all as cheap as you please.

That of course isn't true. Try doing a search for ammo for them all and you'll find there's plenty of it out there and at reasonable prics.

The CM's popularity is driven mainly by a handful of "writers" and a whole bunch of internet experts posting on bulletin boards.

The 6.5CM isn't anything special, there are several 6.5's on the market that outperform it and the Swede has been doing it for more than 120 years.

There's a pretty good article here comparing the new 6.5's to each other and to the Swede as well.

6.5mm Shootout: .260 Remington vs. 6.5x47 Lapua vs. 6.5 Creedmoor

 

[toddc]

You're about a decade off there. The .264wm hit it's peak early in the sixties and when the 7mm Rem came out along with some bad reviews about the .264wm being a "barrel burner" it lost it's edge to the 7mm RM. Since then there has always been a small but very loyal following that has kept it alive but basically on life support.

It was for example next to impossible to find any factory ammo for the .264wm in the eighties and even into the early 90's.

It's had something of a rebirth in the last decade or so with more and better factory rifle offerings in the caliber as well as factory ammo being much more readily available particularly online.

Every serious long range hunter and shooter ought to own at least one .264wm and probably a .270win just for good measure to go along with it.

Probably later this year I'm going to send one of my Win M70 classic stainless .300wm's off to Benchmark and have them rebarrel it in .264. Being a lover of the M70 action the gun cabinet will just never quite be filled properly witnout at least one M70 in .264.

It lost it's edge commercially but tons of us were shooting the crap out of them at LR. Yeah they weren't POPULAR among the OUTDOOR LIFE crowd but pre laser time LOTS of guys ran them. Ammo availability doesn't matter much when you aren't shooting factory anyway. Brass wasn't GOLD like it is nowadays.

YES the 264 was COMMERCIALLY DEAD in this period. Guys all over the prairies were building and shooting the crap out of them though. My 1st kill over 1k was with one and probably 20 other friends made their first LR kills with them well before the COMMERCIAL resurgence.

The 284, SAUMs, WSSMs, 6.5 and 350 REM, and a ton of other popular LR stuff is commercially dead right now....according to Remmy the RUM is dead. The WSM is supposedly dying and so are MOST of the stuff the whackos on here shoot.

Yeah the 264WM was dead according to the gun mags but it was alive and well out on the plains murdering tons of critters, rocks and paper. Don't believe everything the mainstream gun media writes about.

 

[toddc]

That of course isn't true. Try doing a search for ammo for them all and you'll find there's plenty of it out there and at reasonable prics.

The CM's popularity is driven mainly by a handful of "writers" and a whole bunch of internet experts posting on bulletin boards.

The 6.5CM isn't anything special, there are several 6.5's on the market that outperform it and the Swede has been doing it for more than 120 years.

There's a pretty good article here comparing the new 6.5's to each other and to the Swede as well.

6.5mm Shootout: .260 Remington vs. 6.5x47 Lapua vs. 6.5 Creedmoor

I have not seen 260, 6.5x55 or any other 6.5 loads that match the quality of that Creed ammo. That being said I haven't looked hard but that Hornady Creed ammo with the A-max and ELDs flat out shoots and I have picked it up on sale for $20 that will yield ES under 10. I have personally never seen that in ANY factory ammo. Of course I must admit I haven't shot any factory ammo but the Creed since 1978 or so, so maybe I am wrong. Regardless the Creed ammo availability and its quality has contributed to its "MAGICAL ALLURE" Guys aren't used to .5 MOA factory ammo that will buck the wind and not rip your shoulder or pocketbook off.

Oh and yeah the supporters too. Lots of them anytime a case gets pushed.

 

[WildRose]

Unless you own a .280 AI and/or a 7mm RemMag...Which will do what they can, but better.

Nope, having the others is no excuse and please don't let my wife hear you speaking such heresy, she might believe it! gun)