A different type of "long range hunting" - Shotgunning with high density shot

[.300 Dakota]

This probably won't interest many, but it is applicable to the topic of long range hunting. I recently picked up upland small game hunting again for the first time in years. I planned to take my Brittany (squirrel dog, extraordinaire) to the National Wildlife Refuge in the northern part of my state. They require non-toxic shot. I didn't even own a shotgun anymore, so I picked out a Winchester SXP 20ga with 26" barrel with the Invector Plus back-bored choke system. They had 1 choice for non-toxic shot other than steel, which I will not shoot. It was Heavi-X 3" #4 shot. Got to doing my research and watching YouTube videos of shot and choke comparisons. I read lots of reviews by people who had used various chokes and shells in various guns. I was surprised to learn there are guys killing turkeys at 70 yards with 20 gauges. Certainly an eye-opener for me having not hunted upland small game in a couple of decades at least.

What I discovered is that Jebs choke tubes are hard to beat. Hardened to 44 Rockwell and rated for every type of shot through even the tightest constrictions.

Also, I discovered a company in the TN mountains comprised entirely of ex- and currently military called Backridge Ammunition that produces only non-toxic shotgun shells in every gauge. The produce bisthmus and something called ITX 13, which is heavier than lead, and about 36% cheaper than TSS. I have a couple packages of the ITX 13 on order in 20ga 3" #6. To compare, I have ordered some Hevi-X Strut #5/6 combo and Federal Premiun TSS Turkey in 3" #7. I will shoot all, in addition to the Hevi-X Waterfowl #4s into paper at 50 yards through the Jebs .560" Head Hunter and will compare on game performance on the refuge.

The Backridge ITX 13 shot reportedly has a "Saturn ring" around the shot, which acts like a cutting edge, causing excessive bleeding from wound channels in tests on waterfowl. I will hopefully report back on the findings in a month or so. Interested to see how the Backridge performs compared to the more expensive brands at distance on squirrels. Hope these guys make it in the business!

 

[Wedgy]

The Backridge ITX 13 shot reportedly has a "Saturn ring" around the shot, which acts like a cutting edge, causing excessive bleeding from wound

It's a gimmick. Companies spend millions getting shot to stay round(antimony, wads, etc.) so it will fly straight and pattern well, then someone comes out with square shot that "hits like a ton of bricks" but it flies like a brick also.
Plenty of choke tubes work well with TSS and others. Best is to buy some TSS and load your own, its unlike anything before. Number 9's will flatten coyotes inside 60 yards so you get the picture. If you buy TSS from Hal on the TSS forum he will give you load data

Tungsten Super Shots - Tungsten Super Shots General Forums

Introductions, Vendors, General, Handloading, Firearms, Turkey, Upland Game, Waterfowl, Large Game, Bragging Rights!, Classified, Suggestion

www.tungstensupershots.com

Shotshell reloading supplies, components, & accessories: Ballistic Products

 

[del2les]

Ah yes....Tungsten. A few years back, a few of us bullet swagers played with powdered T as a swaging core material. Since it is much more dense than lead, it allowed for shorter 69-75gr target .224 bullets to be stabilized in a 1/12 tw.
Cost was a limiting factor, so eventually, most of us abandoned the quest.

 

[Ricky C]

Hey 300 Dakota, please post your results, cheaper and better ammo is always a good thing. If it's a veteran owned company producing it even better! As you can see from my avatar, I'm a Brittany guy also. Mine are bird dogs though. Only squirrels here in AK are small Red squirrels and they aren't big enough to mess with! Thanks and Take Care, Rick

 

[.300 Dakota]

I will. You can do a quick Google search on Backridge Ammunition and read the story from the Gun writer they let in there. They started in 2014, and finally moved out of the old farmhouse in 2017 or 2018. Don't think they had funds to go to SHOT Show. I've only seen one of their 12ga products on anybody's Web site for sale. They are limited to their local geographic area. They have contact info for anyone wishing to become a distributor. I may be interested in doing so myself.

I wanted to hunt birds with my Brittany's, but they quickly trained themselves on the abundant gray squirrel. I tried starting my oldest on birds and bought some pen raised birds and turned out for him to flush. I had to help him find them, as he was looking for squirrels. When I fired, he broke off the birds and went to the nearest big tree expecting to retrieve a squirrel. I knew it was over then. Lol. That's ok, though. I've never seen an animal get so excited as when he sees me pick up a gun and say, "squirrel!" He literally comes unglued, and he's taught the younger female to act almost as crazy. He puts them by sight before I do usually. He can tree them by scent, also. Wanted to take him out West and let him chase jack rabbits. That would wear him out! Nobody really offers that for that kind of hunt.

That's really interesting on the rifle bullet info. I never thought about that even being a possibility. I do see where just buying a new faster twist barrel would be cheaper than buying much W.

 

[amyjune]

I use #4 shot on Chukar. It kills them up to 75 yards out. That'll teach them to laugh at me...

 

[RH300UM]

Check these guys out. I do a lot of shotshell reloading and use them a lot

Shotshell reloading supplies, components, & accessories: Ballistic Products

 

[Wedgy]

I use #4 shot on Chukar. It kills them up to 75 yards out. That'll teach them to laugh at me...

Are you using #4 steel ? I see you are in CA also which is lead free

 

[nicholasjohn]

I don't have a lot of experience with tungsten shot, but have shot a couple of turkeys with it. Back when it was the new thing, I used Hevi-Shot, #4's ( 12-gauge, 3" ) to shoot a bird at about 30 yards. I haven't shot any at longer ranges, so I can't comment on that. I do know that close in the pellets penetrate like nothing I've ever seen. There were pellets that went all the way through on body hits. I had never seen that before. All the other stuff you mentioned is news to me. I have seen advertisements for hexagonal shot, but have never tried it. Doesn't seem like it would fly too well, but I don't really know. I'm interested in seeing how this all works out for you.

 

[DJ Fergus]

This probably won't interest many, but it is applicable to the topic of long range hunting. I recently picked up upland small game hunting again for the first time in years. I planned to take my Brittany (squirrel dog, extraordinaire) to the National Wildlife Refuge in the northern part of my state. They require non-toxic shot. I didn't even own a shotgun anymore, so I picked out a Winchester SXP 20ga with 26" barrel with the Invector Plus back-bored choke system. They had 1 choice for non-toxic shot other than steel, which I will not shoot. It was Heavi-X 3" #4 shot. Got to doing my research and watching YouTube videos of shot and choke comparisons. I read lots of reviews by people who had used various chokes and shells in various guns. I was surprised to learn there are guys killing turkeys at 70 yards with 20 gauges. Certainly an eye-opener for me having not hunted upland small game in a couple of decades at least.

What I discovered is that Jebs choke tubes are hard to beat. Hardened to 44 Rockwell and rated for every type of shot through even the tightest constrictions.

Also, I discovered a company in the TN mountains comprised entirely of ex- and currently military called Backridge Ammunition that produces only non-toxic shotgun shells in every gauge. The produce bisthmus and something called ITX 13, which is heavier than lead, and about 36% cheaper than TSS. I have a couple packages of the ITX 13 on order in 20ga 3" #6. To compare, I have ordered some Hevi-X Strut #5/6 combo and Federal Premiun TSS Turkey in 3" #7. I will shoot all, in addition to the Hevi-X Waterfowl #4s into paper at 50 yards through the Jebs .560" Head Hunter and will compare on game performance on the refuge.

The Backridge ITX 13 shot reportedly has a "Saturn ring" around the shot, which acts like a cutting edge, causing excessive bleeding from wound channels in tests on waterfowl. I will hopefully report back on the findings in a month or so. Interested to see how the Backridge performs compared to the more expensive brands at distance on squirrels. Hope these guys make it in the business!

I've done a limited amount of duck and dove hunting. I couldn't get the hevi shot shells to pattern well. Neither the Saturn ringed black cloud shells would pattern good either. I tried them in a couple different 12 guages and a 10 gauge Browning auto. Different chokes we're tried also. I'm not saying that someone hasn't had excellent results with those, I'm just saying that I didn't have good results. The regular steel shot Winchester in the black box patterned better in my 10 gauge. And regular steel shot patterned better in my 12 gauges. Like I said, I'm not a shot gun expert. Your mileage may vary.

 

[DJ Fergus]

In my limited research on longer distances with shot guns & bird hunting, I did find out that there were a fair amount of people way up North taking geese up to 100 yards or so. They were using a 10 gauge in a 28" or 30" barrel with the largest steel shot size they could find, which I believe is F or BBB. I've personally saw a crow shot and instantly killed with 10 gauge BB steel shot out to 73 yards.

 

[nicholasjohn]

In my limited research on longer distances with shot guns & bird hunting, I did find out that there were a fair amount of people way up North taking geese up to 100 yards or so. They were using a 10 gauge in a 28" or 30" barrel with the largest steel shot size they could find, which I believe is F or BBB. I've personally saw a crow shot and instantly killed with 10 gauge BB steel shot out to 73 yards.

I have seen the "golden BB" that takes down a bird at extreme distances a few times. This seems to have occurred when the bird is straight overhead. I think that these pellets that are heavier than lead are probably more likely to carry the momentum necessary for this to happen. When calling crows, killing the first bird that comes in to the call is important. If the scout goes back to the flock, the rest of them generally don't come to the call. If he drops in to check out the action, the rest soon follow. If/when the first bird comes over pretty high, it's tough to drop him. If it's very much above tree-top level, the probability of dropping the bird is slight. Maybe with these heavy pellets that has improved. I'll have to ask my buddies who are still active crow caller & shooters if they've employed these heavy shot shells. I do know that they've shot turkeys with them, and they say that 50 yards is a sure pop. At closer ranges, it smokes them.

 

[P7M13]

I only do clays, so never think beyond lead or steel.
I have done work for the guys at Hevi-Shot / Envirometal. Good people. Top notch folk.

 

[.300 Dakota]

Saw a table from some penetration tests that I couldn't believe. They shot ballistics gel at range with various shot type and sizes. They checked for 2 benchmarks: penetration of at least 1 1/2" and penetration of at least 2 1/2". The largest steel you are describing had penetration at over 100 yards, but the TSS shot increased that range 50% or so with much smaller shot. Granted, you still have to have enough shot in the pattern to down an animal at every range, so even if penetration is adequate at 150 yards, I wouldn't think there would be much of a chance at putting enough pellets in a small body at that range to kill them cleanly. It might die, but recovering it would be difficult, to say the least.

I don't know anything about cubic/square- shaped shot, and I believe Black Cloud is steel, isn't it? Or a mix of steel and something else?

There will likely be different tendencies of different materials to fly far and fast (and straight) from different chokes. The ITX 13 these boys are using isn't as heavy (or as hard?) as TSS, so range won't be as far, but it is certainly heavier than lead, so the range will be improved over that. It is also harder than lead, so the flight pattern might be less consistent through tighter chokes. I have no clue what wads they use at Backridge. Hopefully, it's a long one to prevent damage to the barrel from the semi-tungsten shot. These are all questions I need to see answered on the range and in the field. Remember, I'm not hunting birds of any sort, rather furry small game with tough hides (squirrel hides are extremely tough, and absorb most of the lead shot at extended ranges). That said, my best shot ever on squirrels with a shotgun is about 58 - 60 yards, and that was using 3" mag 12ga copper plated lead turkey loads. If you can hit them underneath, the hide is thinner there. Head/neck shots work best. It is hard (impossible) to predict where you will place shot in a pattern at extended range, however, on a target the size of a gray squirrel. With the Jebs and within 30 yards, he will most likely be dog food if I get a full-body presentation. There was one guy that said he killed a wild hog with TSS #7. That's pretty amazing!

I am trying #4 in the slightly lighter than lead, #5/6 combo and #6 alone in the heavier-than-lead, and #7 in the TSS. Hardly apples to apples. The tests are skewed in favor of the load with the highest number of shot (#7) to begin with. Therefore, some math will be necessary to adjust results to a more apples-to-apples picture of comparison.

I guess my main question is how much farther can I really kill small game with the most expensive shot through the best choke vs a cheaper alternative. In other words, the real test is between the heavy/ITX 13 density and the TSS 18 density. Will it be feasible to keep enough shot on target to make the most of the extra distance you can penetrate? If I get 1 or no pellets in a squirrel kill zone on paper, there's no use in me taking a shot in the field at that range. The range part of the test will show me how far I can hit a squirrel. The field portion will show me how far I can kill a squirrel. If I can kill a squirrel, I can kill a big rabbit. 1) The rabbit's a bigger target, 2)Their hide is thinner than a squirrel's. This might bode equivocal for bobcat and coyote, as well... thin hides and bigger targets!