8x68s or 300 win mag ???

[Varberger757]

Unless there are some much higher BC bullets available in Europe than there are here I am correct.

For grins I looked up available factory ammo. The first one I come up with was loaded with the 200gr 8mm TSX with a BC of .400. They show 2940fps for MV.

8x68s

Even in the 180gr TSX which has a BC of .484 the 300wm running at similar MV beats the 8x68s considerably and that equals a flatter shooting rifle better suited for bucking the wind.

Where am I in error?

I really don't know where you got your data from (manufacturers), but surely not from the main ones in Germany.

Bbl 25,6'/ 65cm

RWS 181gr KS, MV 3200ft/s
RWS 187gr HMK, MV 3200ft/s
RWS 201gr EVO, MV 3000ft/s
RWS 224gr KS, MV 2900ft/s

Blaser 196gr CDP, MV 3100ft/s all these distributed by RWS/RUAG Ammotech. lightbulb

Any questions? From my side there will be no more explanations and discussion, because I'm getting tired of this. You have currently so many arguments with other members here, and I don't want be one more on your list. If you feel better I'm going to assure that you already gained the title of a professor in Hunting/shooting and ballistics. Hope you're satisfied.

 

[soundwaves]

I'm basing that on what he's told me is readily available in Turkey.

Yes I've shot the 8x68s. I spent a good bit of time in Europe in my younger days.

Ballistically the the 8x68s simply cannot compete with the 300wm and he shoots in some big open country from ridge to ridge and at elevations where wind can be a big factor. Flatter shooting and higher BC bullet offerings simply make the 300wm the better and more logical choice.

It's not a popularity contest, just trying to help a friend make the best possible decision because there's a lot of money involved.

Over here if I pick up a rifle/caliber and decide it just doesn't suit me it's easy to get rid of it and not lose much in the process and buying the next one is easy and only as expensive as I make it. I can also buy basically an unlimited amount of Ammo any time I choose to and do it at prices that are a fraction of what he has to spend and he's very limited on the number of rounds he's allowed to buy by law.

I'm just being respectful and thoughtful of his needs and limitations.

thanks buddy. you do understand my situation. and when it comes to what shots l take in what kind of enviroment. this photo in this link will make other people understand what ibex hunting is http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/a...n/100_2330.jpg

 

[FEENIX]

I really don't know where you got your data from (manufacturers), but surely not from the main ones in Germany.

Bbl 25,6'/ 65cm

RWS 181gr KS, MV 3200ft/s
RWS 187gr HMK, MV 3200ft/s
RWS 201gr EVO, MV 3000ft/s
RWS 224gr KS, MV 2900ft/s

Blaser 196gr CDP, MV 3100ft/s all these distributed by RWS/RUAG Ammotech. lightbulb

Any questions? From my side there will be no more explanations and discussion, because I'm getting tired of this. You have currently so many arguments with other members here, and I don't want be one more on your list. If you feel better I'm going to assure that you already gained the title of a professor in Hunting/shooting and ballistics. Hope you're satisfied.

GEEZ! What just happened? gun)

 

[WildRose]

I really don't know where you got your data from (manufacturers), but surely not from the main ones in Germany.

Bbl 25,6'/ 65cm

RWS 181gr KS, MV 3200ft/s
RWS 187gr HMK, MV 3200ft/s
RWS 201gr EVO, MV 3000ft/s
RWS 224gr KS, MV 2900ft/s

Blaser 196gr CDP, MV 3100ft/s all these distributed by RWS/RUAG Ammotech. lightbulb

Any questions? From my side there will be no more explanations and discussion, because I'm getting tired of this. You have currently so many arguments with other members here, and I don't want be one more on your list. If you feel better I'm going to assure that you already gained the title of a professor in Hunting/shooting and ballistics. Hope you're satisfied.

So we take the manufacturers claims as gospel as long as they come from Europe, but from Americans they are meaningless? Really?

What are the BC's of the bullets you list?

As for the rest, if you don't want to have a conversation don't start one.

 

[WildRose]

thanks buddy. you do understand my situation. and when it comes to what shots l take in what kind of enviroment. this photo in this link will make other people understand what ibex hunting is http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/a...n/100_2330.jpg

Just trying to help my friend. Also, I'd say take a look at the offerings in 165-178 gr that you can get.

Pushing 165's the 300wm will run around 3,100 3,200FPS with decent enough BC's to be very flat shooting to your 400-600yds limits. I prefer the 180's but the 165's are a bit flatter out that far.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Good day to members. I am currently building a 8x68S caliber hunting rifle . I always wanted a 404 Jeffery and a 8x68S , I believe with these two rifles you can hunt anything walking our beautiful earth...Here in South Africa there is quite a large following in the 8x68S caliber...although we all have a shortage of brass....but you can purchase brass ..dies are available as well...My point of view is that when you use 225-250 gr bullets in the 8x68S the .300 Win Mag and other .30 calibers will just not keep up..keep in mind the 8x68S caliber was the first real Magnum designed by a German gunsmith. In Africa it use is to hunt heavy/thick hide antilope like Eland, Gemsbok, Blue wildebeest and Giraffe at long distances...it really has a incredible penetration at long distance hunting scenarios...
The owner of one of our Gun shops, in Krugersdorp use his 8x68S to shoot competitions at 1000 meters...and shoot all the ghong shoot competitions as well...
If there is a huge difference between the .30 caliber and the .323 caliber is the penetration at long distances when hunting the large bodied animals I mentioned above...
My build consist of a Mauser 98 Obendorf action, opened up to 91mm and a magnum magazine box build with a length 92 mm long.re-loading data for a 200 gn bullet has a OAL of only 89 mm in the RWS brass, by taking it out to 91mm I really am pushing the limits..fortunately the 8x68S is about the only caliber I know of that can handle very hot loads and high pressures...which add to the advantage it has over the .30 calibers...I also had to opened up the action to the rear by milling away the stripper clip slot. I blue printed the action as well for more accuracy and functionality ...the barrel is a 28" PAC NOR with a 1:10 rifling twist and a competition crown cut ...it is a heavy sportster barrel profile bedded into a Wall Nut rifle stock based on a long , slim Mannlicher Schoenauer design...the rifle stock design is a classic design...I will upload load development data when the build is completed...
Conclusion: If you do not make these changes to the 8x68S caliber in this Mauser action it still then is a standard action that will not enable better velocities when hunting at longer distances I believe..I might be wrong... I would be pointing out that if you can build the 8x68S into a magnum action it would be a easier build since the changes will not be needed...but unfortunately we do not have access to magnum actions here in South Africa that I know of...if there are it would just be financially not viable for me to conduct such a build to hunt at long ranges big bodies game species..
Opening up the action:

I fit a double set trigger today as well to keep it really classic

I need to mill out a magnum follower as well to fit in the magnum box

 

[MudRunner2005]

Looks like a cool project.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Looks like a cool project.

MudRunner, thank you for the reply, yes, this is a great build for me ..I always wanted to own a 8x68S , nw I am building my own the way I wanted to build it..in a real magnum caliber as was the 8x68S caliber designed to be ..a magnum caliber , shooting fast/flat with incredible penetration on big bodied , thick skin animals...but it need to be a classic like my 404 Jeffery that is my favorite hunting caliber...
My next build will be a 7mm , 32" Shilen barrel with a 1:8 rifling twist on a Ruger long action...this will be a real looong shooting rifle..

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Here is the rifle stock design I am going to base my design on..sleek, long and beautiful.

 

[MudRunner2005]

MudRunner, thank you for the reply, yes, this is a great build for me ..I always wanted to own a 8x68S , nw I am building my own the way I wanted to build it..in a real magnum caliber as was the 8x68S caliber designed to be ..a magnum caliber , shooting fast/flat with incredible penetration on big bodied , thick skin animals...but it need to be a classic like my 404 Jeffery that is my favorite hunting caliber...
My next build will be a 7mm , 32" Shilen barrel with a 1:8 rifling twist on a Ruger long action...this will be a real looong shooting rifle..

What sort of 7mm chambering are you thinking on going with?

Many years ago, I wildcatted a 8x68S drawing with my software, and necked it down to 7mm, with the walls blown out to 0.010" taper, and a 40º shoulder. I thought it would make for a cool wildcat, but was never able to make it a reality. I can't remember what I ended up naming it, but I can go back and look and let you know, if you're interested in the cartridge design print to send to a reamer manufacturer?

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Mudrunner, I think it will be a great, great long distance target and hunting caliber in a 7mm caliber...I would love to have more data /drawings of the caliber...will it be possible to get re-loading dies??Brass can be neck down using a 7mm forming die????I would like to know how you would approach such a build into a rifle??? This will be a great discussion...I am looking forward to it...

 

[sable tireur]

Two thoughts on your discussion:

- Personally I use this stock design, originally from Mauser, named The African Modell.

This design accommodated the slightly longer barrels which were often carried by bearers grasping the short barrel length and letting the mass of the rifle settle on their shoulder in front of the trigger guard.

I am trying not to come off as being a contrarian but I think you need to give us a little more information regarding how incapable the .30 caliber bullets and cartridges are when compared to the 8mm. My supposition is that we here in the U.S. have very few quality 8mm bullets suited to the thick skin game you mention. However, being a .30 caliber country, we have pushed ahead significantly with the development of heavy .30 caliber bullets which will stay right with your 8mm even without having a 'heavy 225-250 grain' selection.

But if push comes to shove, we would certainly just grab a .338 cartridge and then move up into that heavier range easily. I'm working on a .338 Blaser Magnum currently so I am sure that it will pull off a great showing by comparison. But if necessary, I could get a reamer ground for the 8.5x68 Fanzoj and stay within the limits of both a European cartridge and the metric nomenclature.

So fill us in on the 8mm bullets you speak of and we can have a comparison project.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Two thoughts on your discussion:

- Personally I use this stock design, originally from Mauser, named The African Modell.

This design accommodated the slightly longer barrels which were often carried by bearers grasping the short barrel length and letting the mass of the rifle settle on their shoulder in front of the trigger guard.

I am trying not to come off as being a contrarian but I think you need to give us a little more information regarding how incapable the .30 caliber bullets and cartridges are when compared to the 8mm. My supposition is that we here in the U.S. have very few quality 8mm bullets suited to the thick skin game you mention. However, being a .30 caliber country, we have pushed ahead significantly with the development of heavy .30 caliber bullets which will stay right with your 8mm even without having a 'heavy 225-250 grain' selection.

But if push comes to shove, we would certainly just grab a .338 cartridge and then move up into that heavier range easily. I'm working on a .338 Blaser Magnum currently so I am sure that it will pull off a great showing by comparison. But if necessary, I could get a reamer ground for the 8.5x68 Fanzoj and stay within the limits of both a European cartridge and the metric nomenclature.

So fill us in on the 8mm bullets you speak of and we can have a comparison project.

Sable Tireur, thank you kindly for the photo of the African Mauser, it really is much appreciated..it really is a great design ,,,I will upload a great piece of literature in regards to the African Long Rifle Mauser ..
Yes , I concur, it really is non-productive to commence with a contest in regards to which caliber will beat which ...as pointed out by you , shift a gear to the next lager caliber ...
A friend of mine who has the 8x68S caliber hunting rifle is currently working out loads for his 8x68S...I am mindful that our rifles /barrels will not be the same , but still I am sure I will be able to provide re-loading data gathered in a just manner and procedure since he really is meticulous when it comes to figures and numbers as an engineer ...The bullets I will be using are bullets made by a good friend of mine, Hansie Minnaar , owner of the Stewart`s core bonded bullets..these are the only bullets I use to hunt with for all my hunting rifles ...these bullets really are great...I used them for three years now and it worked perfectly every time...
My aim is to use 250 gn core bonded bullets in my 8x68S...a heavy bullet at as high muzzle velocity as I can get out of this load ...as pointed out , the OAL is 91mm ...the type of game I will be hunting with the 8x68S is Giraffe, eland, gemsbok , blue wildebeest , all big bodied animals some of them at long range distances..shooting ghongs will be another activity I will partake in with the 8x68S..A soon as I have just /correct re-loading data for the 8x68S I will share it on the forum..results are always great to look at , sometimes disappointing or if the numbers all ads up it can be a good feeling if the caliber performs as expected from it..

 

[MudRunner2005]

Mudrunner, I think it will be a great, great long distance target and hunting caliber in a 7mm caliber...I would love to have more data /drawings of the caliber...will it be possible to get re-loading dies??Brass can be neck down using a 7mm forming die????I would like to know how you would approach such a build into a rifle??? This will be a great discussion...I am looking forward to it...

First steps would be getting a cartridge design print. Then having a reamer made from it. Typically the reamer manufacturer can automatically add enough extra tolerances to the cartridge design, for the chamber reamer specs. You will want to have a copy of your cartridge print, and will send that to a custom tool & die manufacturer like Whidden Gunworks. They will use your cartridge print, add the proper tolerances necessary for a full-length sizing die and seating die. So, that takes care of the hard parts. Now the fun parts... You now have your chamber reamer and your custom die set. You have your rifle built. Once that is done, you start the brass prep process for fire-forming your cases. Then you fire-form your brass, and start load development.

Yes, once you get your die set, you will be able to neck-down your 8x68s cases to 7mm. I would recommend a 2-step necking process... I would go from 8mm to .30 caliber, and then .30 caliber down to 7mm. This will help eliminate donuts in the necks. You will then need to trim your brass to proper length.