First of all I can't believe I'm even going to reply given the fact that I haven't had much luck talking to you in the past, however I really don't think you are going to find out much about the 190 berger other than it pry won't survive the launch. I wouldn't load many of them up cause you will probably dust them. They may survive in a brand new barrel but the minute they start touching a rough throat you will be done with this idea. The only berger vld's that I'm aware of making it past 3150 fps regularly are the 308 230 and the 338 300 gen 2.
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8.59 Titan Lazzeroni
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4xforfun
Well-Known Member
The 230 Berger and the 300 grain Berger are NOT VLD bullets. In 30 cal they make a (hunting) 155, 168, 180, 175, 185, 190, and 210, all VLD's....the 230 and the upcomming 215 are a blend of the best traits of the vld type design and the standard BT. The words secant and tangent ojive come in to play here, But I'll be damed if I know the in's and outs of what _ N _ L that all means!!
Berger does not make a VLD in .338....just the Tactical.
I am having very good luck with the 210 VLD at around 3280. But I'm guessing that the Warbird has a few more ponies under the hood.
4xforfun ,,,,,
WHY would I ask folks on this forum to run ballistics numbers for me ? ,,, to build a relationship AND see what they know that I do not ,,,,,,
I am also intrigued by this VLD hunting bullet stuff, and want to take a closer look at it ,,,,,
when I designed all the Lazzeroni calibers in 1995-1996, the shooting/hunting world was a lot different and so was the long range hunting environment, as 300 yards was considered long range and 500 yard shots were considered insane for the most part ,,,,,,,
In the late 90s, I was looked at with a very slanted eye by a magazine writer (I won't name names), on an Alaskan moose hunt when I told him I could shoot the moose we were looking at from 350 yards, no problem ! ,,,,,
the Lazzeroni calibers are some of the biggest and baddest available in the world, and when I started the company, velocity WAS king,,,, we called it ""Moores Law"" ,, (((some is good, more is better)) ,,,,,,
so in summary, I have been hunting since I was 9 years old, I am now old and fatter at age 56, I did not graduate from high-school, started my first business at age 22, built many wildcat rifle rounds in the 80s primarily on Weatherby calibers, started Lazzeroni arms company in 1994, designed all Lazzeroni beltless cartridges from scratch, based mostly upon my Weatherby wildcat experience ,,,,
so what in the hell am I doing on this forum asking questions that I may already know the answers to ?,,,,,,,
I simply enjoy interacting with you guys, most of you know quite a bit about long range shooting, and as always, "I" will learn some things from our conversations ,,,,,,,
I am going to try some of the things you guys are telling me about and see what is real and what is BS ,,,,,,,,
for the past 15 years or so, I have shot most all of my animals in the field, with my own personal Lazzeroni Warbird hunting rifle, spittin out specially NP3 lubricated 168gr HPBT Sierra match bullets and I can shoot 3 shot groups @ 1,000 yards under 10" about any time I want to, just lying on the ground, under the 1,000 yard shooting benches ,,,,,
but I DO know that there are many, many shooters/hunters now that have better rigs than I have, and CAN shoot better than I can ,,,,,
so, remember when I said that I don't build only what I want to build, I build what the customer wants to buy ? ,,,,,, keep those words of wisdom in the back of your head, for the day YOU start your own business ,,,,,
WHY would I ask folks on this forum to run ballistics numbers for me ? ,,, to build a relationship AND see what they know that I do not ,,,,,,
I am also intrigued by this VLD hunting bullet stuff, and want to take a closer look at it ,,,,,
when I designed all the Lazzeroni calibers in 1995-1996, the shooting/hunting world was a lot different and so was the long range hunting environment, as 300 yards was considered long range and 500 yard shots were considered insane for the most part ,,,,,,,
In the late 90s, I was looked at with a very slanted eye by a magazine writer (I won't name names), on an Alaskan moose hunt when I told him I could shoot the moose we were looking at from 350 yards, no problem ! ,,,,,
the Lazzeroni calibers are some of the biggest and baddest available in the world, and when I started the company, velocity WAS king,,,, we called it ""Moores Law"" ,, (((some is good, more is better)) ,,,,,,
so in summary, I have been hunting since I was 9 years old, I am now old and fatter at age 56, I did not graduate from high-school, started my first business at age 22, built many wildcat rifle rounds in the 80s primarily on Weatherby calibers, started Lazzeroni arms company in 1994, designed all Lazzeroni beltless cartridges from scratch, based mostly upon my Weatherby wildcat experience ,,,,
so what in the hell am I doing on this forum asking questions that I may already know the answers to ?,,,,,,,
I simply enjoy interacting with you guys, most of you know quite a bit about long range shooting, and as always, "I" will learn some things from our conversations ,,,,,,,
I am going to try some of the things you guys are telling me about and see what is real and what is BS ,,,,,,,,
for the past 15 years or so, I have shot most all of my animals in the field, with my own personal Lazzeroni Warbird hunting rifle, spittin out specially NP3 lubricated 168gr HPBT Sierra match bullets and I can shoot 3 shot groups @ 1,000 yards under 10" about any time I want to, just lying on the ground, under the 1,000 yard shooting benches ,,,,,
but I DO know that there are many, many shooters/hunters now that have better rigs than I have, and CAN shoot better than I can ,,,,,
so, remember when I said that I don't build only what I want to build, I build what the customer wants to buy ? ,,,,,, keep those words of wisdom in the back of your head, for the day YOU start your own business ,,,,,
Michael Eichele
Well-Known Member
John,
You certainly threw your cards down on the table....That is a good thing. I can respect you more now that I know more about you, how you got started etc....I think youre on the right track here. You cant go wrong hanging around here for good info. You will get yourself dusty in here from time to time. Shake it off and keep going. There is probably alot we can learn from eachother here. You can certainly get alot of input/feedback from the guys here. Some is bull but alot is valuable.
I can tell you have a hard time visualizing how we make first round hits at great ranges in field conditions. Its alot to absorb quickly. Sit back relax and soak up one thing at a time. Just know that there is an exacting method to it and is used very successfully.
I never did welcome you. So, welcome to the site!
M
You certainly threw your cards down on the table....That is a good thing. I can respect you more now that I know more about you, how you got started etc....I think youre on the right track here. You cant go wrong hanging around here for good info. You will get yourself dusty in here from time to time. Shake it off and keep going. There is probably alot we can learn from eachother here. You can certainly get alot of input/feedback from the guys here. Some is bull but alot is valuable.
I can tell you have a hard time visualizing how we make first round hits at great ranges in field conditions. Its alot to absorb quickly. Sit back relax and soak up one thing at a time. Just know that there is an exacting method to it and is used very successfully.
I never did welcome you. So, welcome to the site!
M
RDM416
Well-Known Member
John, A 338 Khan is a 338/378 improved, holds about 15% more powder. Kirby Allen, one of the rifle builders on this site builds a 338 Allen mag that is based on the 408 case. I should be taking delivery of mine in the next month or so. gun)
I am not doubting your experience dialing scopes. However, that has not been my experience with the 7 Night Force NXS scopes I have mounted on LR rigs. My usual test before I leave on a trip is to shoot 1 shot at 100, dial up to 1000, put one round on my 15"X15" gong, (17 to 24 moa depending on the rifle) then dial back to 0. If that shot is not less than 1 moa from the first I have a problem. Usually my two 100 yard shots are around 1/2 moa with the 1000 yard dial up in between.
I'm not trying to brag on my shooting skills here, just saying what I expect from my equipment.
gun)I am not doubting your experience dialing scopes. However, that has not been my experience with the 7 Night Force NXS scopes I have mounted on LR rigs. My usual test before I leave on a trip is to shoot 1 shot at 100, dial up to 1000, put one round on my 15"X15" gong, (17 to 24 moa depending on the rifle) then dial back to 0. If that shot is not less than 1 moa from the first I have a problem. Usually my two 100 yard shots are around 1/2 moa with the 1000 yard dial up in between.
I'm not trying to brag on my shooting skills here, just saying what I expect from my equipment.
Michael ,,,,,
oh I have no doubt that you are making first round hits at extreme ranges in the field, you have obviously dedicated a great deal of your time to figuring out how to do it right ,,,,,,
but I also think that you are NOT doing it EVERY TIME no matter how good your ballistic calculation methods are ,,,, mistakes happen ,,,
Especially at really long ranges, 800 yards and beyond ,,,, there are just too many little things that can add up to big things, not the least of which is the animal moving or taking a step, just about the moment the bullet is launched ,,,,, or that dreaded wind shift, change of direction or change in velocity anywhere between you and the target ,,,,
I can tell that you have worked hard to eliminate as many of these variables as possible, but I don't think you can take away all of them, including the human factors involved ,,,,,
I am going to dive into this extensively, testing and shooting various components over the next 30 days and announce two new model Lazzeroni L2012XTLR rifles at the SHOT SHOW in Las Vegas ,,,,,,
Stay tuned ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
oh I have no doubt that you are making first round hits at extreme ranges in the field, you have obviously dedicated a great deal of your time to figuring out how to do it right ,,,,,,
but I also think that you are NOT doing it EVERY TIME no matter how good your ballistic calculation methods are ,,,, mistakes happen ,,,
Especially at really long ranges, 800 yards and beyond ,,,, there are just too many little things that can add up to big things, not the least of which is the animal moving or taking a step, just about the moment the bullet is launched ,,,,, or that dreaded wind shift, change of direction or change in velocity anywhere between you and the target ,,,,
I can tell that you have worked hard to eliminate as many of these variables as possible, but I don't think you can take away all of them, including the human factors involved ,,,,,
I am going to dive into this extensively, testing and shooting various components over the next 30 days and announce two new model Lazzeroni L2012XTLR rifles at the SHOT SHOW in Las Vegas ,,,,,,
Stay tuned ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Michael
I agree with your suggestion on the added opportunity for John to also offer products that appeal to the over 500 yard crowd here. But I just took a fresh look at our "Your Longest Shot On Big Game" POLL. Very informative.
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It appears that 65% of the respondents did not kill a big game animal in the last 12 months at more than 500 yards. If they are representative, this means that 200,000 of the 300,000 different monthly visitors to this site did not kill a big game animal at more than 500 yards.
Mr. Backus,
That is true about the large percentage of hunters not shooting at big game animals over 500 yards. BUT would they if they had a long range gun and the skill? I only have the skill to shoot out to 600 yards right now because I only have a gun that can cleanly take animals out that far. I had a nice mule deer buck at 1020 yards this year and I couldn't get close enough to him to make the 500 to 600 yard shot that I know that I can make. If I had a 1000 yard gun and the practice, I would have loved to make that shot on him. I am sure there are many, many shooters in my category. The gun company that caters to both is gonna come out on top.
I plan on changing my 600 yard skill up to 1000 yard skill sometime this coming or the next year when I get a LR rifle. Until then, I will have to stick to my shorter range shots.
That is true about the large percentage of hunters not shooting at big game animals over 500 yards. BUT would they if they had a long range gun and the skill? I only have the skill to shoot out to 600 yards right now because I only have a gun that can cleanly take animals out that far. I had a nice mule deer buck at 1020 yards this year and I couldn't get close enough to him to make the 500 to 600 yard shot that I know that I can make. If I had a 1000 yard gun and the practice, I would have loved to make that shot on him. I am sure there are many, many shooters in my category. The gun company that caters to both is gonna come out on top.
I plan on changing my 600 yard skill up to 1000 yard skill sometime this coming or the next year when I get a LR rifle. Until then, I will have to stick to my shorter range shots.
jmden
Well-Known Member
Speaking of that poll, is it supposed to let you 'update' your info every 12 months?
Michael Eichele
Well-Known Member
Well John, youre right. I can't always make a first round hit at extreme ranges. Do you know how I know that? Because I shoot alot of paper targets. I set up and shoot regardless of the conditions. Why? Because I have NOTHING to loose. This allows me to actually KNOW my limits and to know what good conditions/bad conditions are and what bad conditions are when they look like good conditions.
Hunting is different. Unless there is a real need to take a shot I am not 100% sure I can make, I dont take it. I pass alot of shots and will continue to do so if things are not right. If I took shots I was not comfortable with then I am sure things would be different and my record would suck. So what if conditions are not always right. Sometimes they are and sometimes they are not. I take the good shots and pass the bad. This is the reason my record is as good as it is.
I can think of two occasions since Y2K that I have missed on the 1st shot (not counting a 133 yard off hand shot). In both cases, the end result was still 2 dead animals and they were both clean. One was a miss-jugment of wind and the other was an angle steep enough and a distance far enough that a 7 degree error caused a high hit. Even your warbird may or may not have helped in this case. It would have been closer but not close enough. Honestly, I was not comfortable with the shot but had no choice to take it since my buddy had wounded it already. A less than perfect opportunity was better than letting him suffer. The third shot dropped him and for good. Now 702 yard is not that far. Its getting there, but for the conditions it was a shot I am very proud of. So yes, you're right.....
Aside from those two, my record is clean. Before you laugh, just remember, I am also VERY picky about which shots I take and which ones I pass. We are under enough scruitiny and are accused of poor ethics by many other hunters. The last thing I will ever do is prove those people right by taking less than ideal shots and wounding/loosing game.
I am not trying to toot may own horn here. There are MANY users here that can do the same and quite a few that could put myself to shame. Either way, I think you would be suprised how often myself and others do make 1st round hits at distance be it at the range or in the field.
Do yourself a favor and get some of Shawn's DVD's. You can first hand witness 1st round kills at distances that will blow your mind. Distances I can't compete with. 1st round hit in this community are more common that you think.
I look forward to seeing your new rifle and honestly wish it and you success. Please keep us posted. If there is anything we can do to help, let us know.
Michael
Len,,,,,,
that poll is probably very accurate ,,,, 9 out of 10 Lazzeroni rifles that I deliver today, are in the 7.82 Warbird caliber, they leave my factory with a 3-12X42 or 4-16X50 Schmidt and Bender Precision-hunter scope, with front focal plane mounted mil-dot reticle, professionally mounted and zero' d by me at 300 yards ,,,,,,,
this gives the customer a turn-key rig, hold dead on from point-blank to 350yards, first mil-dot down below center is 500, half way between is 400 ,,,, don't worry about the wind unless the shot is longer than 350 yards, and then hold one mil-dot into the wind, for each 10mph wind speed, on a direct cross wind ,,,,,
with range practice, the customer can go to 650 yards, using the second mil-dot below center ,,,,, same wind hold applies ,,,,
that takes care of 98% of all shots he/she will ever take in the field, on 95% of all game animals in North America ,,,,,,,
that poll is probably very accurate ,,,, 9 out of 10 Lazzeroni rifles that I deliver today, are in the 7.82 Warbird caliber, they leave my factory with a 3-12X42 or 4-16X50 Schmidt and Bender Precision-hunter scope, with front focal plane mounted mil-dot reticle, professionally mounted and zero' d by me at 300 yards ,,,,,,,
this gives the customer a turn-key rig, hold dead on from point-blank to 350yards, first mil-dot down below center is 500, half way between is 400 ,,,, don't worry about the wind unless the shot is longer than 350 yards, and then hold one mil-dot into the wind, for each 10mph wind speed, on a direct cross wind ,,,,,
with range practice, the customer can go to 650 yards, using the second mil-dot below center ,,,,, same wind hold applies ,,,,
that takes care of 98% of all shots he/she will ever take in the field, on 95% of all game animals in North America ,,,,,,,
- Joined
- May 2, 2001
- Messages
- 7,529
Very impressive!
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Welcome John,
It's good to see you on this site. I've been drooling over your Warbird for a very long time. Can't wait to see the new LR version. I'm sure it will be a hell of a rifle. I've always wanted your original sporter with the lazz stock. It's about the nicest looking rifles I've ever seen. Good to see you're here and best of luck to you.
It's good to see you on this site. I've been drooling over your Warbird for a very long time. Can't wait to see the new LR version. I'm sure it will be a hell of a rifle. I've always wanted your original sporter with the lazz stock. It's about the nicest looking rifles I've ever seen. Good to see you're here and best of luck to you.
Michael ,,,,,,
OK,, well you gave me a nudge into this ultra-long-range hunting/shooting business ,,,,,
since we last talked, I have added two new Lazzeroni rifle models dedicated specifically to the ultra-long-range hunter/shooter ,,,,
take a look at the rifles page at www.Lazzeroni.com and let me know what you think ,,,,,
later this week I will have all Lazzeroni website ballistics charts updated to 1,000 yards with selected loads ,,,,,
I plan to start some testing late March on the new Hornady 285gr 338 cal tactical bullet, in the Lazzeroni 8.59 Titan caliber, with a 10 twist barrel ,,, should be fun ! ,,,,
OK,, well you gave me a nudge into this ultra-long-range hunting/shooting business ,,,,,
since we last talked, I have added two new Lazzeroni rifle models dedicated specifically to the ultra-long-range hunter/shooter ,,,,
take a look at the rifles page at www.Lazzeroni.com and let me know what you think ,,,,,
later this week I will have all Lazzeroni website ballistics charts updated to 1,000 yards with selected loads ,,,,,
I plan to start some testing late March on the new Hornady 285gr 338 cal tactical bullet, in the Lazzeroni 8.59 Titan caliber, with a 10 twist barrel ,,, should be fun ! ,,,,
