8.59 Titan Lazzeroni

[jmden]

Many of the lrh guys here single feed to avoid the possibility of changing seating depth. I like to keep a couple down in case the need for a very quick second shot occurs where it may be more important to get one more downrange on a wounded animal, for instance, before it gets to cover, etc. POI oftens doesn't change much at all, especially with the Berger Hybrid ogvie shape.

That's 'royinidaho' that's putting the Al tips on bullets, or at least one of them. Is 'elkaholic' that building his own bullets from scratch? Would be nice to see Wildcat Bullets get up and running. They should have dies for the very impressive .338, 300g ULD RBBT AT that was 2.030" long with that big, pointy Alum. tip. That thing had to hit very close to a .9 G1 bc and probably a .46 G7. Kirby was getting nearly 3500fps with the 300SMK in his 338 Allen Magnum and TTI .408 CT brass and may be able to reach that again with this new harder Bertram CT brass. I forgot what he got with the Wildcat 265g ULD RBBT AT...well over 3600 fps and good expansion with that big Al tip at low velocities as I recall.

 

[Michael Eichele]

Michael ,,,,,

how in the world do you get Barnes bullets to hold sub-minute of angle groups at 1,000 yards ? ,,,,, and then there are the velocity to pressure ratio issues, ,,,

Now THAT information will COST you....

If you are more comfortable with conventional types, the ACCUBOND or Interbonds are also decent balances between BC, construction and consistent. In any event either of those will extend your range over the A-Frame. I may step out on a limb (I HATE DOING THAT!) and say the Swift Scirocco as well? I am not familiar with those specifically but hear similar reports compared to the ABs and IBs...

As far as SMK's....They are still quite popular but no where near as popular as they use to be. I think it is (only my opinion here) because some caliber/weight/velocity combos do better than others. Some combos can be less predictable than others. You will have MANY here swear by them and MANY that will curse them.

Tread lightly on this one (SMKs)....

 

[LazzInc]

Michael ,,,,

what have you heard about the Berger 190gr 308 & 210gr 308 VLD Hunting bullets ? ,,,,

 

[Michael Eichele]

Michael ,,,,

what have you heard about the Berger 190gr 308 & 210gr 308 VLD Hunting bullets ? ,,,,

I have heard mixed reviews. A common review seems to be that they need a certain amount of velocity to open. Kind of like any other hunting bullet, the difference is with really high impacts, they are conciderably more explosive than other hunting bullets. For your high speed mags, that could be a problem up close but it would also depend on the target. Coues deer or moose? After seeing what the 338/300 did to a large moose up close, I dont know that I would want a high velocity 190 VLD hitting a moose. A coues buck yes, a moose no. The 230 grainer may be different. Time will tell. At least with the 338/300 there was enough material to be effective. That said, if it found the shoulder bone or such it could have been ugly. Real ugly. Fortunately they both hit ribs and lung.

Another option may be to use a less commercially available bullet (if the goal is to move towards high BC bullets) to achieve a high BC bullet and also have the construction to hold together with high velocity impacts. Examples might be GS custom bullets or Cutting Edge bullets. They are expensive and not mainstream but your products fit in the same catagory. I have not used either so take it with a grain of salt. Some models look good though.

Just an idea....

It's a tough buisness I know!

M

 

[jmden]

On the other hand, established long range companies like Gunwerks and Greybull Precision sell their loaded ammo, set up for their chambers apparently, with a range of Berger VLD bullets and they seem to work OK at close range at well. Any bullet is a compromise design. You have to understand what it's designed for and act accordingly.

 

[LazzInc]

you both make good points, and I will take it from here ,,,,,

I think I am going to start with the Berger hunting version 190VLD 308 bullet in the Warbird caliber, because it will work with the thousands of Lazz Warbirds already out there with the 12 twist barrels ,,,, lubricate all the bullets with NP3 and factory load them ,,, ,,,,

I am going to test a couple first, at close range on a big hog or something ,,,, less than 50 yards at high speed ,,,

THEN I am going to build a special model LAZZ L2012SPLR ,,,, initially in the 8.59 Titan caliber only, with a 10 twist barrel, AI mag box, and 27" heavy barrel ,,,, and seat that big 300gr Berger's ogive about .010 off the lands, and I think they may still fit in the mag box, ,,,,

mount Schmidt and Bender's elite 5-25X56 PMIII scope on it, using the custom Lazz receiver's Picatiny rail mount, 20 MOA cant, 34mm Seekins Rings ,,,

OK ,,, so now I need the name of that handheld rangefinder again, that brags about being able to range animals at 3000 yards ? ,,,,,

and LAST ((I promise)) what do you guys do to bring your ballistics calculation program into the field ? ,,, do you just put it into an iPhone or something ? ,,,,,,

I am sure that I will actually still sell far more of my turn-key, no-fuss, point-and-shoot 50-500 yard Lazz rifle Rigs for the average hunter graduating to the longer shots ,,, but I may just have some fun with these longer bullets at some extreme ranges ,,,,,

And who knows, before long I might just be able to challenge Michael to a long range shootout or something !! LOL ,,,,

 

[pyroducksx3]

The rangefinder is a vectronix Plrf 10 and they have another model the 15 out now as well I believe. People either use their smart phones, an iPod or a pocket pc such as a Dell axiom for their bc programs. On the bullets I'm not sure what you can get those bergers going but the only problem I see is some have found those bergers have a velocity limit, although the fixed this with the big 300 gen II I'm not sure if the others bullets experienced this problem or not. I'm sure others will chime in and say wether this is a concern or not.

 

[pyroducksx3]

I've been thinking about this test you want to do, launching these bergers at high speed on a hog at 50 or less yards. I'm not sure you are going to get very positive results. This is way outside of what the bergers were designed for, I believe. If you want to shoot that same hog at 300+ yards then you might get better results. The accubond 200 or 180 might be better if you're wanting to go from sub 50-600+ yards. I dont expect a 70 Dodge charger to get good gas milage going back and forth from the grocery store, and I don't expect a 2010 Honda accord to get me laid either Just thinking though. Wildrose on this website has a lot of experience hunting big hogs and he might be better able to share his expierence with begets and hogs

 

[RDM416]

Pyroduck, remember we are talking abouhot hogs at close range with the Titan, a 338. I have shot hogs at close range with my 338khan and 250 SMKs. I can assure you it blows BIG holes all the way through even on a big hog. I bet the 300 Berger will do the same.

 

[pyroducksx3]

Oh the way I read it I thought he was talking about the 190 Berger vlds at high velocity on hogs

 

[LazzInc]

Right ,,, I am going to punch the hogs at close range with the Berger 190VLD 308s ,,,,

BTW what is a 338khan ? a 404 Cheytac necked down to 338 ? ,,,

 

[4xforfun]

I have been reading some of the posts on this thread and a couple of things hit me.

First, I am trying to grasp the concept of a self made buisness man...a highly sucessfull one at that, who has his own line of guns...very impressive guns at that...asking one of us to "run some numbers" for him. I can't imagin that a person selling "long range" guns doesn't have six different balistic programs, or at least someone "in house" do do it for him. And, if he is a L R "freak" like some of us, he would have already spend countless hours pouring over balistic data...comparing the light and fast against the heavy and slow...seeing what x bullet will do when pushed to xxxx FPS with xyz chambering. Comparing the balistics of simmiler bullets from different mfgrs!!

Also, on his post about 1000 yard matches in AZ and dialing down and back up between matches....I tell you what ...I NEVER mess with my ELEVATION dials between matches...even on different days.(I usualy re zero for wind though) And, I can't remember a time yet that my morning zero was anywhere near my afternoon zero, and visa versa...or even from the match to the shootoff.....I ALWAYS NEED TO DIAL IN OR OUT ELEVATION...SOMETIMES A FAIRLY LARGE AMOUNT. It has nothing to do with the scope.....it has EVERYTHING to do with the different environmental paramaters....and no amout of speed will change that....

Yes, up to 500 yards or so the fast and light do help in ranging errors....but past that, no matter what you shoot, you need a range finder and you need to either dial up or use the retical to compensate. No more help from the speed department. And it doesn't matter to the gun, the bullet or the deer/moose/elk..weather or not you dialed 6 moa or 7 moa of elevation, or even 8 moa...or held to the third dot or the forth dot....it makes NO difference!!. The fact that gun/bullet XYZ is 1.5 moa flatter than gun/bullet ABC at 1000 yards is compleatly irrelevant!! All that matters is that you "make the connection", so to speak.

Now, Mr Lazzeroni.....I tip my hat to anyone who has accomplished what you have.....ESPCIALY in the gun bizz in these politacly correct times!!!!!! It looks like the guys might be pointing you in the right direction...you may be seeing the light....but I implore you. Go buy a bunch of tru LR bullets and get to shooting....at the very least you will have first hand info for which to compare. You won't have to take the word of a bunch of us computer geaks You will have gotten to go out and shoot, which to me, makes it all worth while...unless you shoot to much already....kinda like the anallagy of the Playboy photographer who was sick of looking at beautifull women!!! Or being rich makes you sick of money. YAH...RIGHT!!

If you were to ask me about which long range bullet to choose.....test them all....Hornady, Berger, JLK all come to mind.... I love the Berger VLD, but for your purposes, maybe the new tactical bullets might be better. The heavier the better....190 is not "heavy" I haven't shot them yet, but from what I have heard the tactical bullets are less sensitive to seating depth issues. I think you should do long range testing, but also POUND them in there at close range....just like what can happen in the field...the dreadded close shot. They aren't bonded, but I think that the long heavy bullets will stay together enough to do MAJOR damage. 230 grain 30 cals and 300 grain 338 cal. are large chunks of lead.


These guys, me included, preach about heavy and slow....with your lineup of monsters....you can preach "HEAVY AND F A S T !!!!


GIDDYUP!!!

 

[Michael Eichele]

^^^ Who's bringing the popcorn?!!!!!! ^^^




Found some!

 

[Michael Eichele]

I think I am going to start with the Berger hunting version 190VLD 308 bullet in the Warbird caliber, because it will work with the thousands of Lazz Warbirds already out there with the 12 twist barrels I am going to test a couple first, at close range on a big hog or something ,,,, less than 50 yards at high speed ,,,

THEN I am going to build a special model LAZZ L2012SPLR ,,,, initially in the 8.59 Titan caliber only, with a 10 twist barrel, AI mag box, and 27" heavy barrel ,,,, and seat that big 300gr Berger's ogive about .010 off the lands, and I think they may still fit in the mag box, ,,,,

I think that is a great idea. You have a great point about the 190 so that it will work with many existing rifles. You will sell ammo for new rifles and old ones. You can still keep some speed and increase your range conciderably with less windage over your current amunition offerings...

I agree that the 8.59 is the way to go for the first wave of new 'LR' offerings. It is just plain hard to beat the 338/300 grain pills for the hunting we do. When you look at the popularity of the 338's the last few years (ie: Edge, Lapua Mag, various wildcats etc....) I think you could do quite well with them. The windage values would be stellar.

Keep us posted.

M