8.59 Titan Lazzeroni

[LazzInc]

Pyroducks ,,,,,

I think you have hit the nail on the head, better than I ever could ,,,,

I "DO" look at long-range hunting differently than some of the guys here on this forum ,,,,

I put more emphasis on velocity, to make up for range calculation errors that DO occur in the field, for a variety of reasons ,,,,, including severe up/down shooting angles ,,,,

,, the faster the bullet, the flatter the trajectory, the less significance miscalculations in range and angle have on the shot, that simple ,,,,

wind drift, while it is calculable, is never an exact science in the field, too many factors at play, that the shooter cannot see or control, and the long heavy VLD bullets do not really gain their wind drift advantages till 500+ yards anyway ,,,, ((MOST of the hunters that I sell rifles to, seldom shoot their animals past 500 yards)) ,,,,,

I try to keep things "practical" without going overboard, without adding too many things to the calculation list, when it is time for the shot or too many dials to turn ,,,,,

an example of this, is my own to-do-list right before the shot that I call "WAR" ,,, WIND, ANGLE, then RANGE in that order, done mentally in my head, as I get ready for the shot ,,,, as I have memorized most of the basic calculations on changes in hold for all three ,,,,, ((approximate 30 degree angle up or down for example, multiply range X .85, 45 degrees up or down, range X.70)) ,,,,

for the shooter who does not even want to calculate anything but range, and then only past 300 yards ,,, I will sight his/her rifle in dead-on at 300 yards ,,,, first mil-dot down is 500 yards ,,, half-way between is 400 ,,,,

most of the new shooters to the long-range-hunting-club can remember at least those simple hold numbers ,,,,

Wind drift out to 400 yards with the lightning fast Lazzeronis is negligible unless it is blowing really hard, so they don't need to worry much about that either ,,,,

now ,, WHY would I decide it was OK to hit that Mexico Coues deer in the paunch or backside if my wind calculations were a little off ? ,,,,, because I was putting enough horsepower on that little deer with the Warbird, that it did not matter if I hit him a little too far back, he was not going to go anywhere ,,,, BUT if I had hit him way too far forward, in the front part of the brisket, he COULD go somewhere MAYBE ? ,,,, those are the kinds of chances we ALL take when we dope the wind at long range on game animals ,,,,

In summary, I learned long ago that I do not build what "I" want to sell, I build what the customer wants to buy, so if the majority of my customers want 10 twist barrels to shoot long heavy VLD bullets in their Lazzeroni rifles, that is exactly what I build for them ,,,,,

 

[pyroducksx3]

All good points and I don't necessarily believe one way is better than the other. I think you should be proficient in both methods (holds and dialing). I have hold mark reticles and know or will know what each line represents and at what magnification. You are right sometimes you don't have time or don't need to dial. I know at 20x my first line is dead on at 340 and the second at 420. Would I dial for a shot at these or close to these ranges, probably not. But I like the ability if conditions are more than I can predict ie wind at weird angle, up/downhill, elevation stuff like that. You have a great level of experience, I wish I had the confidence you do, I hopefully will get there. I agree with most everything you have said, with exception I'll take the heavier vld bullets but yes everyone would be better off understanding how their rifle performs vs. Relying solely on a bc program. I imagine most of the experienced shooters here do and use the methods you state until they get to extreme ranges.

 

[RDM416]

Didn't say it didn't take a wheelbarrow to get my gear in.

 

[Michael Eichele]

Didn't say it didn't take a wheelbarrow to get my gear in.

Likewise!

I regularly hunt and harvest dall sheep with my 338 Edge (300 grain VLDs). I hike in from the bottom too. No airplanes.

 

[Michael Eichele]

So I guess John, you need to ask yourself, are you trying to appeal to the 400-500 yard crowd or the 500-1000 plus yard crowd.....

I understand most of your clients dont hunt past 500 yards. The status quo is thus fine. Most here on this site do. I dont speak for the rest but I suspect that if you want to appeal to most of the hunters on this site, you will need to offer at least some options to appeal to them such as barrels and/or ammo that lends itself to past 500 yard hunting. We see your point about the velocity relationship under 500 yards.

What makes your 500 yard gun so 'user friendly' begins to create problems past 500. After 500 they are not so user friendly. Use a tighter twist and higher BC bullets and it becomes more user friendly again. At least for that application.

With all of the precision tools available to account for angle, temp, pressure, etc.....if there is an error, it is likely the shooter's error. Under 500 yards, yes your barrel burners minimize even human errors we get it.

But most errors past 500 yards are going to be wind. The barrel burner then does not help the hunters here. We need the tighter twist and heavier bullets. Fill those needs and I am sure you will have more longrangehunting.com customers.

 

[jmden]

Didn't say it didn't take a wheelbarrow to get my gear in.

No doubt...between a rifle that weighs 12 lbs. 4oz. (w/NF 5.5-22), rangefinder, PDA, kestrel, small spotting scope and small tripod (everything is on my back...not a wheelbarrow), I bet I pack an extra 10+ lbs of stuff over your 'typical' hunter. But, I'll tell you, my success rate at filling the freezer has gone up exponentially now that I have a true long range rig in a .338 Lap Imp spitting 300g Bergers at almost 3Kfps.

The 741yd bear I shot this year was dialed for (steady 11mph, 3 o'clock wind), with a firing solution from a proven ballistic program that I tested and massaged the numbers a bit to make sure my drops were right on. That bullet hit within 1-2" of where I was aiming under field conditions. It hit about 3-4" from where I had hoped to hit because I'd ended up holding a bit more R windage when carefully considering the likely wind component of the actually bullet path--turns out I was correct with the original firing solution, but still double lunged the bear, who made it about 30ds. I'd done my homework and had a perfect setup for long range shooting where the bears were likely to be. Same thing with a 580yd small 4x4 muley 5 days before the bear.

I don't take a shot at a big game animal unless I can range it reliably with my rangefinder. If I can't range it reliably, I have no business shooting. Some time with a proven ballistics program clearly shows why. Estimating yardage at truly long ranges is a proven 'no-go' recipe.

I have run that NF to ranges out over 1K and back to 0 many times with no change in zero whatsoever. I don't think that is uncommon. No problem with zero and dialing with an older Vari-x III either. With the right scopes, and tested/proven numbers in a ballistics program that you know how to use, part of the puzzle is put together.

Most important part of the puzzle, though, is the old Clint Eastwood saying about a 'man's got to know his limitations'...and be willing to accept them. Good judgement...something we all run afoul of now and again...coming from careful study of long range hunting and enough experience of repeated field shooting.

The above stories do not detail 'impressive' shooting by any stretch. There are many here to whom the yardages/conditions in those stories is 'child's play'. I'm learning... But, it is careful attention to detail in EVERY step along the way and being diligent to understand and properly manipulate the time-proven concepts surrounding long range hunting, most of which has been learned here over the years. (Thanks, Len, for filling my freezer... )

 

[LazzInc]

pyroducks ,,,

if you use a scope like a Schmidt & Bender precision hunter, with the fine centered mil-dot reticle in the front focal plane, the spacing between the dots is the same at all magnifications ,,,,

Michael ,,,,

when it comes to selling rifles, I will appeal to whichever crowd wants to buy them and when a customer plops down the deposit $$$ cash to order one of my outstanding Lazzeroni model 2012s, he can specify a different barrel twist from standard, makes no difference to me ,,,, I use the best barrel maker that I know in all the world, Mr Gary Schnieder and he will make each barrel twist whatever I specify ,,,

as for factory loads, if enough Lazzeroni customers began asking for 200gr .308 VLDs or 300gr .338 dia VLDs I would certainly load them ,,,,,

do you handload your own ammo, or prefer to buy it off the shelf ? ,,,,

how about the other guys here on this forum ?

jmden ,,,,

I admit, my shooting is not always particularly spectacular, but I usually get the animal that I am after, and sometimes that takes improvising in the field, because the shot opportunity that presents itself is not always perfect and/or without risk ,,,,

If I only shot when I was 100% certain of the range and wind and the position of Mars in the southern sky, a particular animal that I may have worked for a whole day or more to get close to, might get away,,,,

I am thinking back trying to remember the past 20 years of my shots and kills, many at long range, and I do not believe I have ever wounded an animal, that got away without being finished off just as soon as I got up to him ,,,, and I "think" about 74 or so animals fall under that category ,,,

That includes all of North America, & 1 trip to South Africa ,,,,

I am 100% a trophy hunter now ((till they hit the ground and I get to eat them!)) and I will pass all other animals as long as it takes, to get close enough to the animal that I want to shoot ,,,

In addition, we know all too well about those guys that say they NEVER miss right ??

 

[jmden]

I think that for most of us (many of us are shooting wildcats anyway to get the perf. we want) near benchrest quality handloading is the norm. Certainly great attention to what is going on (or our best attempt) is typically striven for. As always, there are some that 'stuff and shoot' and seem to do fine, however. Sometimes I wish I was in that category...

 

[LazzInc]

Michael ,,,,

so let's say you are slowly talking me into "possibly" introducing a new Lazzeroni model 2012??? ,,,,, maybe L2012SPLR (special long range)

the 7.82 Warbird is our most popular caliber by a long shot, so in your opinion, which brand/weight .308 diameter VLD bullet should I be looking at for the new model LAZZ ? ,,, with ((and don't ask for a commission please ! LOL)) ,,,,,

what do you think of the Lazzeroni Thumbhole style stock for a rifle like this ? ,,,,,,,

 

[pyroducksx3]

I'm sure others know best but I'm thinking I'm .308 cal the 210 or 230 Berger the 225 Amax, or some of the cutting edge 200 gr or 180 gr. Also I know about the ffp scopes and really want one just can't afford one currently. There is a member here elkoholic I think that takes ,maybe bergers?, and cuts the tips and puts his own aluminum tips on them and gets bc's in the 7's, i believe he said they would expand down to 1300 fps but i might be misquoting. if you could make your own bullets and produce these in 7mm and 30 cal you might get a following of people purchasing just your bullets even.

 

[LazzInc]

well, I don't want to go completely off the deep end of the pier with this, I need to keep it practical and loadable at the factory level ,,,,, but still accomplish the job ,,,,

one of the issues of course will be neck tension on the bullet OR being able to crimp into a bullet cannalure, so that none of the bullet seating depths in the mag box get altered under recoil when firing ,,,,,,

 

[Michael Eichele]

well, I don't want to go completely off the deep end of the pier with this, I need to keep it practical and loadable at the factory level ,,,,, but still accomplish the job ,,,,

one of the issues of course will be neck tension on the bullet OR being able to crimp into a bullet cannalure, so that none of the bullet seating depths in the mag box get altered under recoil when firing ,,,,,,

I think for how far or not so far you are willing to make a move, the Barnes LRX 175 may just be the happiest medium you would find (at least for a commercially available bullet). You get to keep your blistering speed and the effective range can be increased a noticable amount over the A-Frame that your ammo currently uses. The BC isnt near as high as we would like it but it is an improvment. In standard air, you would still have adequete velocity for expansion at over 950 yards with a mere 63 inches of drift in a full value 10MPH drift (1000 yard). The LRX would have a ligitimate 200 yard advantage over the A-Frame.

The 200 LRX gets you just about the same distance with a hair less windage. The 200 ACCUBOND even better.

This is just an idea. You get the best of both worlds. Hyper velocity while extending your reach a bit and having the construction to hold up on a close shot.

If you really want to cut down on the wind you can get around the 50" mark at 1K with the 210 Berger. Bump up to their newer offerings such as the new 230 grain 30 cal bullet. If you could get them to 3100 FPS you would have 46" of windage which would be phenominal. You would have a 30 cal version of the 338 Edge or LM. That said, everything comes with a price. Barrel life versus recoil and vice versa. You would think that even for a close up shot the 230 would have enough mass and material to get the job done but I could be way off base here. Hence the reason the 338/300 VLD is so popular. They do just fine up close and in your face due to their rediculous size and still drift less than 48" at 1K. Good barrel life, minimal drift and effective both near and far. Even with all of that, it isnt perfect for ALL applications. Unfortunately, nothing is.

Also, (and this is only my opinion here) I think .003" of neck tension plenty tight to hold bullets in place even under heavy recoil yet its light enough not to have a death grip on it either. Crimps are evil (IMHO).

I personally dont like thumbhole stocks but thats just me. For a 'pack' rifle, the typical stocks you use are acceptable. If you want to really hit a home run with a new special LR rifle, something with an adjustable cheek piece for a good cheek weld. These are the things that make the difference between a 500 yard hunting rifle and a 1000 yard hunting rifle. They dont have to be a heavy A5 type or similar but something mid weight with an adjustable cheek peice. It does not have to be a 'heavy' rifle either. It could be 10-12 pounds scoped with the right stock, components, scope and accesories. A 10-12# true 1K yard hunting rifle is more than possible.

 

[LazzInc]

Michael ,,,,,

how in the world do you get Barnes bullets to hold sub-minute of angle groups at 1,000 yards ? ,,,,, and then there are the velocity to pressure ratio issues, ,,,

without special sizing and proper lubrication, the pressure goes way up when we try to push them as fast as conventional bullets ,,,,,,

have the Sierra HPBT matchkings gone out of favor for long range shooting over the last 10 years ?,,,,,

 

[Browninglover1]

I think you ought to run the 230 grain Berger Hybrids or the 210 Berger VLD's. If you could find a consistently accurate load for your rifles it would be a truly deadly combination.