Oh sure! Look how elitist and big caliber oriented you are. How dare you leave the .25 out of that list!Just playin' with ya!
And I deserved it.
7mm Terminal Performance Issues? True or False?
- Thread starter Scot E
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And I deserved it.
Based on what exactly? If you really believe that I have a bridge to sell you and a lottery ticket from last week I'll give you along with it.
There is no 7mm "issue." If there is, it is hoopla, campfire talk, bias, poor shot placement, or a bad situation with the wrong bullet.
There is issue with flinching, hunters showing up with rifles they are unfamiliar with, borrowing other guy's rifles they've never shot, poor marksmen, bullet failures from time to time, bad shot angles, not really knowing trajectory, etc.
This topic by no means gets me heated, rather, I sit back and laugh at the very notion that somehow, someway a bullet diameter has even come into question as having issues! (specifically, the 7mm)!
The "issue" in question has a foundation BUILT ON SAND! Very amusing.
The person who claims to have guided many people and witnessed 7mm bullets perform poorly is most likely experiencing poor shooters using what ever they bought off the shelf and not practicing even though they went on an expensive hunt. You would be surprised how many people pay several thousand dollars to go on a hunt and shoot their rifle once at a pie plate at 100yds and think, "yup, she's right on!". I have shot over 50 deer with a 25-06 and then (about 20 years ago) I bought the best all around gun I have ever owned.
I bought a Winchester 70 7mm with a boss. I am 66 years old and have a completely artificial shoulder. I am obviously concerned about recoil. Recoil is moderate at most with my 7 mag and it shoots 1/2 minute of angle. Most of my shots are from 16 foot high hunting blinds and average 300 yards. Maximum of 600 yards. I have killed three black bears in the last seven years. Two dropped in their tracks when hit through the front shoulder. One went 20 yards when shot just behind the front shoulder. I have shot over 30 deer with this gun and knock most down where they stand. I will admit to having to follow one about 35 yards. These 30 kills were all at 300-600 yards. I shoot a Sierra 160 grain Game King boat tail hollow point bullet and have never had anything close to a failure. It does ruin a lot of the front shoulder on a white tail however. Think about a 7mm mag with a boss. It will probably recoil less than the 7mm-08 without a boss and you can hunt anything on the North American continent with it as far as I am concerned. The key is to practice with your rifle so you can truly place a shot where you want it. Good luck to both you and your new hunter.
I bought a Winchester 70 7mm with a boss. I am 66 years old and have a completely artificial shoulder. I am obviously concerned about recoil. Recoil is moderate at most with my 7 mag and it shoots 1/2 minute of angle. Most of my shots are from 16 foot high hunting blinds and average 300 yards. Maximum of 600 yards. I have killed three black bears in the last seven years. Two dropped in their tracks when hit through the front shoulder. One went 20 yards when shot just behind the front shoulder. I have shot over 30 deer with this gun and knock most down where they stand. I will admit to having to follow one about 35 yards. These 30 kills were all at 300-600 yards. I shoot a Sierra 160 grain Game King boat tail hollow point bullet and have never had anything close to a failure. It does ruin a lot of the front shoulder on a white tail however. Think about a 7mm mag with a boss. It will probably recoil less than the 7mm-08 without a boss and you can hunt anything on the North American continent with it as far as I am concerned. The key is to practice with your rifle so you can truly place a shot where you want it. Good luck to both you and your new hunter.
Varminator 911
Well-Known Member
QUOTE=phorwath: Shoot a similar weight Nosler Accubond out of .264, .277, .284, or .308 caliber rifle into a deer-sized game animal from a similar-sized cartridge, and I don't believe the hunter shooting the weapon would be able to predict which caliber bullet was in use based on the animal's response, or by inspecting the internal wound channel in the animal.
+100 on that trial. People couldn't tell the difference unless their mind was made up.
Those that have a problem with .284 are blowing one or two instances out of proportion. They can all fail if you put the wrong bullet at the wrong speed into the wrong place. When you pull the trigger the animal, angle of shot, bullet expansion characteristics, distance/velocity, etc all have to come into play.
I'd also second LTLR. You'll only see a real difference if you move up to 338 or bigger.
IMO, those uncertain about the terminal performance of various bullets should stay away from the soft bullets like Bergers, Amax, and Ballistic Tip and instead use premium bullets like Barnes, Accubond, Swift, and North Fork. The tougher bullets are more forgiving on bad shot angles.
+100 on that trial. People couldn't tell the difference unless their mind was made up.
Those that have a problem with .284 are blowing one or two instances out of proportion. They can all fail if you put the wrong bullet at the wrong speed into the wrong place. When you pull the trigger the animal, angle of shot, bullet expansion characteristics, distance/velocity, etc all have to come into play.
I'd also second LTLR. You'll only see a real difference if you move up to 338 or bigger.
IMO, those uncertain about the terminal performance of various bullets should stay away from the soft bullets like Bergers, Amax, and Ballistic Tip and instead use premium bullets like Barnes, Accubond, Swift, and North Fork. The tougher bullets are more forgiving on bad shot angles.
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DereK M you have hit the nail directly on the head! Anyone shooting long range for any reasonable amount of time and with the ability to learn and listen has to agree with you. Years ago you could not take anything under a 30 caliber rifle into Quebec to hunt moose. Now lets stop and think a minute and compare the ballistic data from a 30-30 Winchester to the data on a 7mm mag. But you could not use the 7mm back then. Amazing what they did not know.
DereK M you have hit the nail directly on the head! Anyone shooting long range for any reasonable amount of time and with the ability to learn and listen has to agree with you. Years ago you could not take anything under a 30 caliber rifle into Quebec to hunt moose. Now lets stop and think a minute and compare the ballistic data from a 30-30 Winchester to the data on a 7mm mag. But you could not use the 7mm back then. Amazing what they did not know.
Can you now use a 7mm there for moose?
NZ Longranger
Well-Known Member
Man, I haven't had such a laugh on this forum in a long time!!!! There's a few posts on here from guys who must be in the flat earth society!
Out here in NZ, we have no seasons or limits, and hunt big game all year round. We have 7 different deer species ranging from Whitetail up to Elk, and plenty in between. A good hunter in NZ will kill 1000's of deer in his lifetime, which gives us an edge when it comes to field experience.
Bullet construction, impact velocity, target animal size and bullet placement will determine how quickly an animal dies, but if all these things are equal, bigger is always better when it comes to quick killing. Of course recoil and rifle weight mean you can't use a big 338 for everything - a 7 lb all up walkabout rifle in the 338/408 wildcats would be unshootable, let alone trying to start your kid off with one! So this is where the smaller calibers come into their own. And a really good combination of bullet weight, velocity, BC and recoil is as easy if not easier to find in 7mm than any other caliber for the average sort of application on deer sized game. Would I use a 7mm on a Grizzly or a moose? Not if I had something bigger to use, but on deer sized game in an all round walkabout rifle that might get used from point blank to way out there, I'd choose a 7mm over all others.
I have shot and seen shot tens of thousands of deer sized game animals with every caliber you can imagine from the 17HMR up to the 416 Rigby. I've seen balls ups with every caliber, mostly due to bad placement, or a bad choice of bullet for the job. But with the right choice of bullet and cartridge capacity for the job, I've seen the various 7mm's kill 'em as quick if not quicker than anything bar the big 338's. To suggest all else being equal the 270 kills things better than the 7mm's is downright hilarious, and the smaller calibres even more so! We wouldn't want to let scientific fact get in the road of a good story would we boys!
Scot, if you get fooled into believing any of this anti 7mm hocus pocus, you too better join the flat earth society!!!
Yours in amusement,
Greg
Ps Scot, I'm sure you won't get fooled, and back to original question, the 7mm/08 makes a great deer cartridge for a kid. Load up something like the 120gn TTSX's and drive them at 3100fps plus, and you'll have a giant killer that shoots flat with minimal recoil. Even better out here where we can stick a suppressor on them, then you've got less recoil and no muzzle blast, and the kids just love shootin' them. As Stu said way back in this thread, the 7mm/08 is the most popular deer cartridge in NZ for a reason. There are better 7mm's for longer range, but out to 300 yards, man they do the job with so little fuss!
Out here in NZ, we have no seasons or limits, and hunt big game all year round. We have 7 different deer species ranging from Whitetail up to Elk, and plenty in between. A good hunter in NZ will kill 1000's of deer in his lifetime, which gives us an edge when it comes to field experience.
Bullet construction, impact velocity, target animal size and bullet placement will determine how quickly an animal dies, but if all these things are equal, bigger is always better when it comes to quick killing. Of course recoil and rifle weight mean you can't use a big 338 for everything - a 7 lb all up walkabout rifle in the 338/408 wildcats would be unshootable, let alone trying to start your kid off with one! So this is where the smaller calibers come into their own. And a really good combination of bullet weight, velocity, BC and recoil is as easy if not easier to find in 7mm than any other caliber for the average sort of application on deer sized game. Would I use a 7mm on a Grizzly or a moose? Not if I had something bigger to use, but on deer sized game in an all round walkabout rifle that might get used from point blank to way out there, I'd choose a 7mm over all others.
I have shot and seen shot tens of thousands of deer sized game animals with every caliber you can imagine from the 17HMR up to the 416 Rigby. I've seen balls ups with every caliber, mostly due to bad placement, or a bad choice of bullet for the job. But with the right choice of bullet and cartridge capacity for the job, I've seen the various 7mm's kill 'em as quick if not quicker than anything bar the big 338's. To suggest all else being equal the 270 kills things better than the 7mm's is downright hilarious, and the smaller calibres even more so! We wouldn't want to let scientific fact get in the road of a good story would we boys!
Scot, if you get fooled into believing any of this anti 7mm hocus pocus, you too better join the flat earth society!!!
Yours in amusement,
Greg
Ps Scot, I'm sure you won't get fooled, and back to original question, the 7mm/08 makes a great deer cartridge for a kid. Load up something like the 120gn TTSX's and drive them at 3100fps plus, and you'll have a giant killer that shoots flat with minimal recoil. Even better out here where we can stick a suppressor on them, then you've got less recoil and no muzzle blast, and the kids just love shootin' them. As Stu said way back in this thread, the 7mm/08 is the most popular deer cartridge in NZ for a reason. There are better 7mm's for longer range, but out to 300 yards, man they do the job with so little fuss!
Russ Hatch
Well-Known Member
I can only go by what I have observed.. Thirty five years of hunting with a friend who shoots a Savage 99 in 308 using 180 grain winchester factory Power point S.P. and myself shooting a Ruger 77 in 7mm Mauser using Federal factory 175 round nose until Federal quit making them and I used the last I had . I switched to reloads with Hornady 162 gr A-max. We have both killed Whitetails from 20 yds to 400 yds over the years. Neither of us has lost one yet. As far as I could tell none of the deer could tell the difference which of us shot them. Dead is dead, no matter the bullet diameter. I still think it comes down to bullet placement and construction.
Man, I haven't had such a laugh on this forum in a long time!!!! There's a few posts on here from guys who must be in the flat earth society!
Out here in NZ, we have no seasons or limits, and hunt big game all year round. We have 7 different deer species ranging from Whitetail up to Elk, and plenty in between. A good hunter in NZ will kill 1000's of deer in his lifetime, which gives us an edge when it comes to field experience.
Bullet construction, impact velocity, target animal size and bullet placement will determine how quickly an animal dies, but if all these things are equal, bigger is always better when it comes to quick killing. Of course recoil and rifle weight mean you can't use a big 338 for everything - a 7 lb all up walkabout rifle in the 338/408 wildcats would be unshootable, let alone trying to start your kid off with one! So this is where the smaller calibers come into their own. And a really good combination of bullet weight, velocity, BC and recoil is as easy if not easier to find in 7mm than any other caliber for the average sort of application on deer sized game. Would I use a 7mm on a Grizzly or a moose? Not if I had something bigger to use, but on deer sized game in an all round walkabout rifle that might get used from point blank to way out there, I'd choose a 7mm over all others.
I have shot and seen shot tens of thousands of deer sized game animals with every caliber you can imagine from the 17HMR up to the 416 Rigby. I've seen balls ups with every caliber, mostly due to bad placement, or a bad choice of bullet for the job. But with the right choice of bullet and cartridge capacity for the job, I've seen the various 7mm's kill 'em as quick if not quicker than anything bar the big 338's. To suggest all else being equal the 270 kills things better than the 7mm's is downright hilarious, and the smaller calibres even more so! We wouldn't want to let scientific fact get in the road of a good story would we boys!
Scot, if you get fooled into believing any of this anti 7mm hocus pocus, you too better join the flat earth society!!!
Yours in amusement,
Greg
Ps Scot, I'm sure you won't get fooled, and back to original question, the 7mm/08 makes a great deer cartridge for a kid. Load up something like the 120gn TTSX's and drive them at 3100fps plus, and you'll have a giant killer that shoots flat with minimal recoil. Even better out here where we can stick a suppressor on them, then you've got less recoil and no muzzle blast, and the kids just love shootin' them. As Stu said way back in this thread, the 7mm/08 is the most popular deer cartridge in NZ for a reason. There are better 7mm's for longer range, but out to 300 yards, man they do the job with so little fuss!
Thanks for sharing your input. It is nice to see your perspecitive considering how much experience you have! You truly have a unique opportunity with that much deer killing potential! Great Info! Thanks for the suggestion on the load too. I will keep that one in mind.
In your experience do you think there is any legitimacy to the fact that some bullets may not perform well under the higher powered 7mm cartridges or do you think that is all conjecture as well? Not sure what bullets you have access to in NZ or have experience with.
Interested in your opinion.
winmag
Well-Known Member
Derek M, Varminator 1911, and others,
Are you basing your claims on years of whitetail experience only, or have you also came out here and killed big critters like elk, at multiple ranges too. How many times have you hunted out west where your up in the mountains on foot?
I did not want to bring this up before, cause I dont want to offend anyone or thier particular hunting style, but after reading alot of these recent posts, I cant help but wonder. How many of you are basing your like of the 7mm soely on killing deer at long range from a box or tree, overlooking a sendero, foodplot, or beanfield, or canyon, where you have had hours to range everything in site, and have a pre determined idea where your optimal shot will be?
The 7mm is a "job specific" caliber if you want it to shine. End of story. It has its niche as an accurate longrange cartrige. And It serves its purpose well for some folks. If thats your hunting style, and thats what you are banking your opinion on, I will not argue with you.
A 7mm can and has worked on any north American game animals, but there are much better options for allround/all range/ all critter hunting the way alot of us out here do. We, (the majority of the hunters I know) public land DIY hunters are hunting huge amounts of mountainous terrain covering many miles on foot, hunting, where an animal can present a shot at CLOSE or LONG range, in timber to sagebrush, to wide open meadows, at any time. A job specific caliber such as the 7mm just doesnt cut it for many of us "allround/all range/all critter hunters for a very REAL reason. It simply is not optimal for the task at hand, for 1, and has a poor track record when asked to be an allround/all range/all critter caliber for 2.
The origional question was for a youngsters first rifle, (allround big game rifle is how I understood it) and it asked about the validity of the 7mm's earned reputation as a questionable performer in some cases.
Theres a definate reason why this "RUMOR" of a "COUPLE INSTANCES---HA!" Have been, "Blown out of perportion" (ya I liked that one...) as some of you so belive.
But questioning real life experience with a specifically NOTORIOUS caliber for failing on big game when relied on as an allround rifle for any senario is rediculous and you have absolutely no ground to stand on implying that we are lying or dont know what were talking about, or saying we are taking a couple instances and blowing them out of perportion. That is just showing your ignorance of real life truths, and experiences, weather its happened to you specifically or not.
Be careful who you imply is a lier, or who is just blowing things out of perportion, because it only proves one thing. You blow too much smoke without wory of being credible, or considering the credibility of others.
I cant spell it out any more plain than I have in previous posts. The 7mm can shine, and has a niche as a L/R job specific caliber, and as a result has a large following for a reason. For shorter ranges the underpowered 7mm-08 is just not optimal compared to others, and for dedicated realy long range on anything that walks, the 338 absolutely trumps any 7mm offering hands down.
But again, I sincerely hope that all of you 7mm fans continue to have success in the future, no matter what your hunting style, or game may be. But realize also the 7mm has its fair share of non belivers too for a very REAL reasons. The 7mm will not ALWAYS fail, but has failed more often than most common hunting calibers I know of, or we wouldnt even have this thread. Not just "rumors, or a select few instances blown out of peroprtion". Maybe we have differing hunting styles, and or game hunted, or even opinions on effectiveness of calibers on game, but wow....
Try to think before you type next time please. I find it quite insulting to be made out to be a liar, or have my credibility questioned, let alone that of other respected shooters like Bigngreen as well. He can take care of himself, but Im a bit confused here as to where you get off implying that.
Im no keyboard comando, or cyber ninja, or troll, and I dont stir the pot on purpose, nor do I try to blatently imply that someone is blowing something out of perportion, without first having proof someone is full of it. Maybe you could give that a try as well, and we can sweep it under the rug and agree to disagree for our own reasons, and experiences.
Im not here to make enimies, or insult anyone, or make folks upset. Im here to better myself as an ever extending range hunter and shooter, and to learn. I share experiences with some others so they can learn from my shortcommings, or experiences as well.
Opinions can, and do differ, and I can live with that.
Are you basing your claims on years of whitetail experience only, or have you also came out here and killed big critters like elk, at multiple ranges too. How many times have you hunted out west where your up in the mountains on foot?
I did not want to bring this up before, cause I dont want to offend anyone or thier particular hunting style, but after reading alot of these recent posts, I cant help but wonder. How many of you are basing your like of the 7mm soely on killing deer at long range from a box or tree, overlooking a sendero, foodplot, or beanfield, or canyon, where you have had hours to range everything in site, and have a pre determined idea where your optimal shot will be?
The 7mm is a "job specific" caliber if you want it to shine. End of story. It has its niche as an accurate longrange cartrige. And It serves its purpose well for some folks. If thats your hunting style, and thats what you are banking your opinion on, I will not argue with you.
A 7mm can and has worked on any north American game animals, but there are much better options for allround/all range/ all critter hunting the way alot of us out here do. We, (the majority of the hunters I know) public land DIY hunters are hunting huge amounts of mountainous terrain covering many miles on foot, hunting, where an animal can present a shot at CLOSE or LONG range, in timber to sagebrush, to wide open meadows, at any time. A job specific caliber such as the 7mm just doesnt cut it for many of us "allround/all range/all critter hunters for a very REAL reason. It simply is not optimal for the task at hand, for 1, and has a poor track record when asked to be an allround/all range/all critter caliber for 2.
The origional question was for a youngsters first rifle, (allround big game rifle is how I understood it) and it asked about the validity of the 7mm's earned reputation as a questionable performer in some cases.
Theres a definate reason why this "RUMOR" of a "COUPLE INSTANCES---HA!" Have been, "Blown out of perportion" (ya I liked that one...) as some of you so belive.
But questioning real life experience with a specifically NOTORIOUS caliber for failing on big game when relied on as an allround rifle for any senario is rediculous and you have absolutely no ground to stand on implying that we are lying or dont know what were talking about, or saying we are taking a couple instances and blowing them out of perportion. That is just showing your ignorance of real life truths, and experiences, weather its happened to you specifically or not.
Be careful who you imply is a lier, or who is just blowing things out of perportion, because it only proves one thing. You blow too much smoke without wory of being credible, or considering the credibility of others.
I cant spell it out any more plain than I have in previous posts. The 7mm can shine, and has a niche as a L/R job specific caliber, and as a result has a large following for a reason. For shorter ranges the underpowered 7mm-08 is just not optimal compared to others, and for dedicated realy long range on anything that walks, the 338 absolutely trumps any 7mm offering hands down.
But again, I sincerely hope that all of you 7mm fans continue to have success in the future, no matter what your hunting style, or game may be. But realize also the 7mm has its fair share of non belivers too for a very REAL reasons. The 7mm will not ALWAYS fail, but has failed more often than most common hunting calibers I know of, or we wouldnt even have this thread. Not just "rumors, or a select few instances blown out of peroprtion". Maybe we have differing hunting styles, and or game hunted, or even opinions on effectiveness of calibers on game, but wow....
Try to think before you type next time please. I find it quite insulting to be made out to be a liar, or have my credibility questioned, let alone that of other respected shooters like Bigngreen as well. He can take care of himself, but Im a bit confused here as to where you get off implying that.
Im no keyboard comando, or cyber ninja, or troll, and I dont stir the pot on purpose, nor do I try to blatently imply that someone is blowing something out of perportion, without first having proof someone is full of it. Maybe you could give that a try as well, and we can sweep it under the rug and agree to disagree for our own reasons, and experiences.
Im not here to make enimies, or insult anyone, or make folks upset. Im here to better myself as an ever extending range hunter and shooter, and to learn. I share experiences with some others so they can learn from my shortcommings, or experiences as well.
Opinions can, and do differ, and I can live with that.
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I base mine on experience in the following states/provinces with hunting bears, pronghorn, mule deer, whitetail, coyotes, and wolves since 2002:
New Brunswick, Ontario, Alberta, British Columbia, Wyoming, Colorado, Kansas, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Nebraska, Kentucky, Alabama, South Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia, Missouri. I have also hunted Iowa, and Illinois, and Ohio.
My elk hunts have been archery only. I have hunted 6500 feet and above, on foot, atv, truck. I have been in the desert as well.
I have hunted properties that are my own from blinds, treestands at distances up to 800 yards over cotton fields, bean fields, corn, you name it.
No, I'm not a western native, and I don't live with the elk in my back yard.
I also know that there is no such thing as some mysterious inherent bad mojo with a 7mm diameter bullet, whether it's from a 7-08 or a 7mm Lazzeroni cannon or any other wildcat that pushes a 7mm bullet. END OF STORY. I am specifically referring to diamter, not bullet type or construction. I have never heard of a "job specific" diameter. That is a truly remarkable conclusion, and a misrepresentation of fact, and I say that respectfully.
The positive note on threads like this is we will always stick to our opinions based on our experiences, along with a little science. I could certainly change my mind in many ways if I lived out west, who knows. I'm still at a loss for a statement that something is "so much better" if living out there, when the fact is all we are doing is arguing about your success v. mine.
And that, my friend, is a topic that is a wash because as they say, dead is dead.
If we both have ways of making a million bucks per year, who am I to tell you your way is wrong or my way is better?
New Brunswick, Ontario, Alberta, British Columbia, Wyoming, Colorado, Kansas, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Nebraska, Kentucky, Alabama, South Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia, Missouri. I have also hunted Iowa, and Illinois, and Ohio.
My elk hunts have been archery only. I have hunted 6500 feet and above, on foot, atv, truck. I have been in the desert as well.
I have hunted properties that are my own from blinds, treestands at distances up to 800 yards over cotton fields, bean fields, corn, you name it.
No, I'm not a western native, and I don't live with the elk in my back yard.
I also know that there is no such thing as some mysterious inherent bad mojo with a 7mm diameter bullet, whether it's from a 7-08 or a 7mm Lazzeroni cannon or any other wildcat that pushes a 7mm bullet. END OF STORY. I am specifically referring to diamter, not bullet type or construction. I have never heard of a "job specific" diameter. That is a truly remarkable conclusion, and a misrepresentation of fact, and I say that respectfully.
The positive note on threads like this is we will always stick to our opinions based on our experiences, along with a little science. I could certainly change my mind in many ways if I lived out west, who knows. I'm still at a loss for a statement that something is "so much better" if living out there, when the fact is all we are doing is arguing about your success v. mine.
And that, my friend, is a topic that is a wash because as they say, dead is dead.
If we both have ways of making a million bucks per year, who am I to tell you your way is wrong or my way is better?
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NZ Longranger
Well-Known Member
Scot,
This old world is just one big place now! The difference between the USA and NZ is just seconds on the web or 4 days via airmail! Everything you have we have as well.
As I said above, if a bullet doesn't perform, its due to it being chosen for the wrong application not anything to do with a few thousandths of an inch difference in diameter. Certainly the big 7mm's are capable of driving bullets very fast, but you'll have the same issues if you drive the comparable SD bullet of the same type that speed in the same case capacity family. A case in point would be the RUM family and the 7mm 162gn A-Max at say 3300fps verses the 30 cal 178gn A-Max at the same speed. These velocities are straight out of the Hornady manual and are for comparison only. You can drive the 162 way faster than this out of the 7mm RUM. Anyway, the point is you'll get similar terminal performance with both these examples, with a very slight edge going to the 30 cal due to the 16gns more bullet weight and 24 thou more diameter. Up close they'll both tend to over expand and may lack penetration depending on what bones are hit, but will perform well out past 300 yards or so. The 7mm does have a significant advantage in BC though, .625 G1 verses .495. This is where the 7mm's shine - BC verses velocity.
If at the other end of the bullet construction spectrum, you choose the Swift A-Frame in 7mm 175gn at 3000fps verses the 30 cal 200gn, both at about 3000fps, again out of the Swift manual, the expansion ratio would be similar for both if hitting the same size animal in the same place. The 30 cal will penetrate a little more due to the 25gn increase in bullet weight, but the 7mm again has the better BC, .493 verses .444. It also has the better SD. These bullets will both penetrate like hell on animals at close range and I have put them lengthways right through animals like the Gemsbok in Africa and the Red stag here in NZ.
The point of these examples is that it is the bullet construction that is the difference between the A-Max over expanding up close but working superbly at long range and the A-Frame penetrating right thru up close, not 24 thou of bullet diameter!
If you choose the same weight bullet of the same family in each caliber, you'll have an even more noticeable over expansion in the 30 cal due to the increased velocity you can drive it at due to the larger expansion ratio.
The 300 RUM pushing the 168gn A-Max at 3400fps plus will be a bigger bomb than the 7mm 162gn at 3300fps.
The 30 cal 180gn A-Frame at 3200fps out of the RUM won't penetrate anywhere near as far as the 7mm 175gn due to extra 200fps of velocity causing more expansion. The 7mm's .310 SD also aids penetration verses the 30 cal 180's .271 SD.
None of this is opinion, this is fact. You will find examples of hunters choosing the wrong projectile for the job in any caliber, and maybe in some of the above poster's experiences they happened to see more guys shooting 7mm's using the wrong bullets, or hitting in the wrong places. But that doesn't mean the 7mm is a worse killer than the 270 for example! That just simply ain't credible!
Greg
This old world is just one big place now! The difference between the USA and NZ is just seconds on the web or 4 days via airmail! Everything you have we have as well.
As I said above, if a bullet doesn't perform, its due to it being chosen for the wrong application not anything to do with a few thousandths of an inch difference in diameter. Certainly the big 7mm's are capable of driving bullets very fast, but you'll have the same issues if you drive the comparable SD bullet of the same type that speed in the same case capacity family. A case in point would be the RUM family and the 7mm 162gn A-Max at say 3300fps verses the 30 cal 178gn A-Max at the same speed. These velocities are straight out of the Hornady manual and are for comparison only. You can drive the 162 way faster than this out of the 7mm RUM. Anyway, the point is you'll get similar terminal performance with both these examples, with a very slight edge going to the 30 cal due to the 16gns more bullet weight and 24 thou more diameter. Up close they'll both tend to over expand and may lack penetration depending on what bones are hit, but will perform well out past 300 yards or so. The 7mm does have a significant advantage in BC though, .625 G1 verses .495. This is where the 7mm's shine - BC verses velocity.
If at the other end of the bullet construction spectrum, you choose the Swift A-Frame in 7mm 175gn at 3000fps verses the 30 cal 200gn, both at about 3000fps, again out of the Swift manual, the expansion ratio would be similar for both if hitting the same size animal in the same place. The 30 cal will penetrate a little more due to the 25gn increase in bullet weight, but the 7mm again has the better BC, .493 verses .444. It also has the better SD. These bullets will both penetrate like hell on animals at close range and I have put them lengthways right through animals like the Gemsbok in Africa and the Red stag here in NZ.
The point of these examples is that it is the bullet construction that is the difference between the A-Max over expanding up close but working superbly at long range and the A-Frame penetrating right thru up close, not 24 thou of bullet diameter!
If you choose the same weight bullet of the same family in each caliber, you'll have an even more noticeable over expansion in the 30 cal due to the increased velocity you can drive it at due to the larger expansion ratio.
The 300 RUM pushing the 168gn A-Max at 3400fps plus will be a bigger bomb than the 7mm 162gn at 3300fps.
The 30 cal 180gn A-Frame at 3200fps out of the RUM won't penetrate anywhere near as far as the 7mm 175gn due to extra 200fps of velocity causing more expansion. The 7mm's .310 SD also aids penetration verses the 30 cal 180's .271 SD.
None of this is opinion, this is fact. You will find examples of hunters choosing the wrong projectile for the job in any caliber, and maybe in some of the above poster's experiences they happened to see more guys shooting 7mm's using the wrong bullets, or hitting in the wrong places. But that doesn't mean the 7mm is a worse killer than the 270 for example! That just simply ain't credible!
Greg
winmag
Well-Known Member
I have to admit when writing my previous post, I was a bit ****ed. But after reading your recent post I almost wanna shake your hand, and call this one done, and move on.
We seem to be hunting in some, simmilar country, for simmilar critters, with differing opinions, and experiences is all. I can live with that.
I figgered ya may have been. No reason to be. This is just another parallel to arguing whether or not we should run synthetic lubricants in a rig for more miles, or stick with dino oil and change often.
If the rig gets us from A to B, is there really a right answer? (ahem, uhh, yes, definitely synthetics). 
