7mm Terminal Performance Issues? True or False?

[Russ Hatch]

I hunt with a Ruger 7mm Mauser (ballistic twin of a 7/08) and have for over 35 years. It loves 160 to 175 grain bullets.When I began hunting with this rifle I was using Federal factory loads with the 175 grain round nose bullets. The last box I got lasted for 10 years and was only shot at game animals. I can't get the Federals anymore and now shoot reloads with Honady 162 grain A maxes. This 7mm has done every thing I have asked of it. I agree with others who have said bullet placement and selection are bigger factors than caliber.

 

[Outlaw6.0]

This is a very interesting topic that has consumed major amounts of time being discussed around my hunting grounds, my uncles outfitter in Idaho will not, under any circumstance, allow his clients to use a 7mm for the very same reasons LTLR outlined earlier. However, this was somewhere during my uncles 40+ years of elk hunting (I don't know when exactly) & I tend to think that bullet construction of decades past played a significant role of the bad experiences. As outlined by numerous folks already (as we all know) shot placement is always the key to a successful harvest, my grandfather killed several elk with a .243 win, how? Because he was very picky about shot placement, if the shot wasn't there he didn't take it. It reminds me of the stories you always hear of the individual on his first big game hunt who went out & bought the biggest baddest rifle he could find & took out on a hunt not being framiliar with the rifle at all.... that my friends is the biggest cause of unsuccessful hunts I have ever been involved in, I wouldn't hesitate to bet that 75% or above all bad shots, unsuccessful hunts etc are caused by inexperience in whatever arena, be it bullet selection, shot placement, effective range.

PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE... & when your done PRACTICE some more!!!

 

[Pdvdh]

False. Bullet selection & placement, as previously mentioned, are largely responsible for terminal performance. In addition, bullet impact velocity is an important factor in the selection of bullets for use.

I've heard the opinions expressed off and on over the years, but never any plausible explanation associated with the opinions that the .284s don't cut it. I've used .284s on deer, Mt. Goat, Dall Sheep, Black Bear, Brown Bear, Grizzly Bear, Moose, and Caribou. I never experienced any inability to kill game, other than when a bullet didn't perform as designed. But I've seen the same thing with .308 and .338 caliber cartridges also, when those caliber bullets didn't expand within the game animal.

 

[Scot E]

I bought my Daughter a 7-08 for her first rifle. I run 140g AB's in it, and it has done very well on deer and antelope. Most shots about 200yrds. She did take an antelope at 500yrds. Beyond that I can't offer any more opinion.

On the other hand my son runs a 6.5-06 with 130g Siroccos. They are magic.

Steve

Steve,

How does recoil compare between the two cartridges you mentioned? The 6.5-06 is another that made my short list for my son.

 

[Outlaw6.0]

I had a 6.5-06 AI built for my dad as a christmas gift, THAT cartridge is a sweet heart, everyone who shoots it falls in love with it. I think it is a very viable round that deserves a hard look.

 

[Derek M.]

derek, why not get as much vel. as possible since small case cap? I never used many bt's and for no reason in general, but i use them in my factory 260 very devasting on whitetails.
mike

Because of the countless reports of btips blowing up. Even though I've never had it happen.

 

[Scot E]

Thanks for all the replies.

There are a number of guys that mention bullet selection as an important factor but I find it interesting that this is mentioned as if it is an easy thing to do. (Yes, I am reading into what some of you have said )

I guess my reasoning is as follows. Bullet selection in my mind is one of the most difficult parts of determining a hunting round. A shooter can test for accuracy, drop at distance, wind and atmospheric effects etc. One can also study BC's and bullets weights to help find the best bullets for their intended shooting style but determining performance on game is really a difficult one and performance is really what we are saying when proper bullet selection is mentioned.

I don't think many would argue that accuracy needs to come first in selecting a hunting round. Especially for the long range stuff this has to be paramount but also for shorter ranges. One could argue that many guys go over board looking for .25 MOA groups, ignoring bullet style as it pertains to terminal performance, when they never plan to shoot past 500 yards. More emphasis could be placed on bullet performance and a bit less on accuracy at times.

But bullet performance on game can't be easily judged. In Idaho we can take one deer, elk, and black bear a year. That isn't much when it comes to determining bullet performance even over a 5 year period. And additional testing can't really be done off season as varmint shooting etc. give no indication of bullet performance on big game.

Add to that the fact that a bullet may appear to have all the proper characteristics for being a good performer on big game but when used comes up short due to too much or too little bullet expansion and IMO we have a mess when it comes to truly having a way to determine good performing bullets.

Another issue that could be part of the problem with the 7mm's reputation on being a bad big game round is that bullets have to work in cartridges ranging from the 7mm-08 to the 7mm RUM. I haven't personally seen any bullet manf that has a proper list of which bullets are specifically designed for the light weight vs heavy hitters. It seems unlikely that bullets are going to do a great job with such a huge difference in power levels.

Interesting info you guys have given. Thanks for sharing.

 

[str8shoot]

I've killed antelope to elk with my 7 mag using Accubonds and Bergers. In my experience I haven't seen anything take more than 2 steps after that .284 bullet does its job.
We gunlovers are a stubborn bunch and if something works we tend to stick with it until we experience a reason to change. I'll keep killing things with my 7mm until I experience a reason to use something different.
Would I recommend a 7-08 as a kids first rifle? Hell yes! I would have much preferred a 7-08 to the 30-06 I first hunted with, especially in a light rifle. A six and a half pound 06 is not much fun for a twelve year old to shoot.
I have never been on a guided hunt, but if I did and the outfitter wouldn't let me use my 7mm on deer or elk, he wouldn't be getting any of my money!

 

[Firecat]

While I agree with some of your comments in your latest post. I disagree with some in turn. The 7mm is a unique beast. Like you mention. How can one determine what to use and where is this information available? Lets take Nosler as one example. They offer different variations of essentially the same thing. The polymer tipped bullet. The three that we will talk about are the; ballistic tip, accubond, and the E-tip. While superficially they look similar, nothing could be farther from the truth. The ballistic tip is simply a thin walled lead core bullet designed to expand rapidly. The accubond while still being encouraged to open quick will have drastically more controlled expansion due to copper jacket design. Not to mention that on this bullet vs the ballistic tip, the core is bonded to the jacket. In essence a "Tougher bullet". Then the E tip. A solid copper bullet with a hollow nose cavity for a very defined amount of expansion. Designed to retain virtually all of its mass. Therefore making it the most robust of the three.

Ok, so with these three which one is the best choice? Three factors are to be considered. Which I may say here will likely sail over Joe Public's head. Perhaps even many reloaders heads. The three factors being first velocity capability of the firearm/caliber to be used, the animal to be shot and lastly the intended distance the animal will be harvested from. Each of these factors being based on the other in order of importance. Nosler has this posted directly on their site. Also the expansion expectation for each bullet a varying velocities. What I would choose to shoot a mule deer with at 100 yards with a 7mm-08 will differ greatly from that of a 7mm Rem Mag or Ultra Mag. Is there a one size fits all? I don't believe so. And Alas we have perhaps the answer to the very question that has so many chasing their tales to begin with.

1+ with what was stated above. If a guide wouldn't let me use my 7mag. He would not be my guide!

 

[Varmint Hunter]

Hey - the guy might be right - who knows? Just don't tell the umpteen animals that I've anchored with the 162gr A-Max over the years - they may spring back to life.

Sometimes people say things that are so ridiculous that there is just no rational response.

 

[Autorotate19]

False, I agree with everyone that shot placement is first and foremost as far as killing game animals efficiently no matter which caliber rifle used. I highly disagree with there being some crazy reason that 7mm's wont kill as well as say a 270 or a 30 caliber. I have killed 6 mule deer and 5 bull elk with a 7mm rem mag over the past few years and have watched numerous others killed with this caliber. I have used berger vld's, ballistic tips, partitions, barnes x, and the good ol rem cor lokt. Every single one did its job one way or another if the animal was hit in the vitals with one shot. I agree that bullet choice is important and shot placement. Such as shooting bull elk at 50 yards on the shoulder blade with a ballistic tip. Probably not going to work well but try that with a barnes x bullet and the outcome will probably be much better. It all comes down to what your confident with, choosing the right bullet for job, and shot placement.

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Again, I agree with the last four. I would definitely have a problem if a guide told me not to use one of my 7mm's.

 

[winmag]

Very interesting post. Ive just read the whole thing from beginning to end, and while Im still 100% in agreement with Bigngreen, I do have to admit that there are many valid pionts in favor of the 7mm, that have been brought up here.

For my personal hunting style wich is any critter in Notrh America form (0-600+/-) yards IMO, I would take a 300 any day over a 7mm anything.
----my reasoning is exactly what many have already stated, there is no good allround near to far bullet for the 7 mag from what Ive experienced. There are exelent choices for long range, but it has been my experience that Im offered way too many close range opportunity's, as well as L/R opportunities to choose the 7mm for my personal hunting style. Ive seen WAY too many close range "pencil holes" on everything from deer & elk, to blackbears with that cartrige. And also blown up bullets. Sometimes they worked right tho...... usually farther the out the better.
For a dedicated L/R cartrige, and L/R platform, Id still rather have a 300, or better yet a 338. wich have proven more trustworthy to me at harvesting various game goes at varying ranges.
As far as a "slow 7mm", such as a 7-08, for any critter bigger than deer, why bother when you can have an -06 instead. Put a brake on the barrel, and use a limb saver recoil pad if your concerned about recoil. Is it the best cartrige for everything? NO, Would it work on everything, and not leave you feeling under gunned? Yep, with the right bullet. So why not have some meat to a bullet with a 30cal. for a first rifle? 30 cal is a better allround choice IMO, and WAY better in the off chance you cross a griz while out hunting.
Im not intentionally stirring the pot here, but doesnt anybody find it Odd how the 7mm has such high BC's but close to mid range bullet performance is not trusted by SOOOOO many hunters?
-I think BC gets WAAAAAYY too much credit unless your shooting past 500yds
-No-one can doubt 7mm (mag) is a good platform for dedicated long range work, (600+ IMO), once its had a chance to take advantage of the high BC, but even that is trumped by how much better the 338 is at dedicated L/R work, especially where "bigger than deer" animals are concerned.
-The 7mm will work on anything, but IMO there WAY better choices once you get off the BC is king issue, especially for an allround first rifle, where long shots are limmited. If BC was all that mattered the 6.5 would fill every deer and elk hunting camp, but they DONT, cause 270, 30-06, 7mm and 300 mag's and 338 cals dominate hunting camps everywhere. Although the 7mm is included in that list, I belive it has proven itself just as un-trustworthy for some, as it has trustworthy for others, depending on range.
-In all reality were kinda splitting hairs depending on our personal opinions, and experiences.
-Some folks swear by them, and have thier own personal reasons, and experiences to back up thier opinions. I wont count on your "previously harvested critters coming back to life", but My experiences, have obviously differed. Drastically.
I personally just dont trust the 7mm in any configuration.
As far as a guide saying NO 7mm's...... Well as much as Id like to shake his hand, Id have to say that if he didnt like 7mm's he maybe shouldve pawnned the client off on a guide who didnt mind them. I agree with him, but I wouldnt like to pay to be told that my cartrige was inferior according to my guide either.

In short as already stated numerous times, they work well for some folks, and not worth a darn for others. And as also previously stated, we as people tend to stick with what works for us, and shy away from what has let us down. Im very opinionated, and do not nesicarily agree with "the masses" on singing the praise of the 7mm, but again thats my opinion for my average hunting style. For dedicated L/R hunting, the 338 is KING period. For average/all round hunting I trust a 30 cal, or even my 270wsm over a 7mm anything. For some reason those lil buggers just kill stuff good.
Just my $.02
Wich side of the fence are you on? Both sides have valid points.

 

[Derek M.]

If I had a guide tell me to leave my 7 at home I'd tell him to **** up a rope. That is the most rediculous crap I've ever read. Maybe he had a couple of guys in camp who brought brand new 7mags they never shot and couldn't handle and had a few bad experiences so to him all 7s are "bad karma."

There's not one bit of scientific evidence that a 7mm projectile will perform in an inferior manner to other diameter bullets given equal shot placement. We're talking about a few thousandths of an inch here. Lost game has nothing to do with a bullet being .277, .284, .308 in diameter.

If I was told I had to part with every rifle I own but one (or part with every caliber but one), I'd keep the 7mm Rem Mag.

And, by the way, guides are human too. I know they have hours, days, months, and years of field experience and like any other hunter or fisherman, they embelish **** too, like seeing one bad track job from a newbie 7 shooter and they tell everyone it's been happening for years.

I had similar crap happen to me in bear camp in Alberta where the outfitter referred to bowhunters as "c_cksuckers" because of lost bears. When I asked him about lost bears with rifles, it was a roll of the eyes, and "well we lose bears every season because these guys don't know what they are doing." So, more bears are lost to guns than bows, but the bowhunters are the c_cksuckers.

I killed both of my bears that week with my bow. After a non-issue tracking job (both bears were within 40 yards), they told me I was welcome to use my bow anytime.

Again, I think it is all shot placement with good equipment. Period.